While the NY tabloids spin wild tales about Chuck sniffing and licking Marla's shoes, the prosecution is forced to explain what is actually captured on the videotape...
While the NY tabloids spin wild tales about Chuck sniffing and licking Marla's shoes, the prosecution is forced to explain what is actually captured on the videotape...
Previously on Heeled... Chuck Jones called The Post from jail yesterday, admitted he had swiped Marla Maples's high heels and begged for forgiveness.
Kevin J. Hynes:This is going to be a very embarrassing press case.
Trisha LaFache:Donald Trump tried to strike a deal with Jones offering not to press charges against him if he would hand over a series of potentially embarrassing photographs of Donald and Marla. This is not about burglary or possession of stolen slingbacks, or even guns.
Kevin J. Hynes:Maybe Chuck was using the photos or the diary as a black mail chip.
TV News Reporter:Once he found out he was losing her to Bolton, he wooed her back.
Kevin J. Hynes:This guy has been manipulating the press since the beginning, right? He's the president of the United States now.
Trisha LaFache:Is this is w en Trump took over the case.
Kevin J. Hynes:Trump never took over the case.
Trisha LaFache:What about that meeting that Trump held without the DA his involvement?
Kevin J. Hynes:The meeting broke down with no deal.
Trisha LaFache:Is that why the tape leaked?
Kevin J. Hynes:The tape never leaked.
Trisha LaFache:As Jones grabs a shoot his stuffing is bag, he sniffs it and then licks it. I'm your host, Tricia LaFache, and
this is Heeled:The Curious Case of Marla Trump's Shoes. And here we are again. Thanks for coming back.
Kevin J. Hynes:It's great.
Trisha LaFache:How are you feeling Kevin J. Hynes about this whole thing.
Kevin J. Hynes:The walk down memory lane?
Trisha LaFache:The walk down memory lane?
Kevin J. Hynes:I would say this. It's over 25 years ago.
Trisha LaFache:Right.
Kevin J. Hynes:So like, trying to think back like specifically about what you were doing and what you were thinking 25 years ago, trying to get in that time machine is like it's almost impossible. But it's funny that given all the work that I did in the DA's office and as criminal defense attorney, that this is the case that we're doing a podcast on. It's hilarious.
Trisha LaFache:This is the case everybody wants to hear about.
Kevin J. Hynes:Yeah, well, I mean, obviously, it's not normal what happened. And you know, I'm looking forward to exploring the intimate details of Chuck Jones and Marla Maples and Donald Trump, and the shoes.
Trisha LaFache:I mean, pressure wise as a 20 something year old, young man, when you walked into the courtroom on a murder trial, or a rape trial or robbery trial, I'm sure that you felt a lot of pressure to get a conviction in those cases. Right?
Kevin J. Hynes:The violent crime stuff was always something that you were nervous about, because there's a victims involved that are you know, have suffered some serious scores.
Trisha LaFache:Yeah.
Kevin J. Hynes:So yes, this one was different type of pressure, right? Because this one was newspapers every day, and this one was the one where you can definitely lose your job over right. I mean, you lose, you lose a murder case. Not great. You lose a robbery case, not great. You lose the shoe case, could be all over. It was a type of case where there was a no win for me if I won the case, at the end of the day, okay. He convicted a guy who stole shoes. Yeah. Congratulations. If I lost the case. I'm the laughing stock of the city.
Trisha LaFache:Yeah. And it's not just you know, what your bosses think. But you know, your rep in the department, right? Everybody talked.
Kevin J. Hynes:There's 500 Assistant District Attorneys in Manhattan, right? Everybody know about this guy?
Trisha LaFache:Right.
Kevin J. Hynes:And everyone was making fun of me. Every hallway. I walked down every court room I walkd down.
Trisha LaFache:Don't trip!
Kevin J. Hynes:Yeah. So it was a low stakes, high pressure. Perfect type of correct case you want to do in the DA's office.
Trisha LaFache:No, it's high stakes with all of these characters involved. I mean, they don't seem typical. Do you know? Some of them may be straight out of Central Casting, but others, you know, not so much.
Kevin J. Hynes:Talk about an array of the most whacked out motherfuckers you've ever put together. I mean, every witness, every person I met on this case was was like..
Trisha LaFache:Special.
Kevin J. Hynes:A little bit off I would say.
Trisha LaFache:Like, I mean, when I was in school, the Manhattan DA's office was one of the premier if not the premier DA's office in the country. And here you guys are hunting down the shoe bandit.
Kevin J. Hynes:Yeah, well, I mean, there was a lot of criticism about that. But at the end of the day, this is the case that I was given. And I tried to investigate it and prosecute it to the best of my ability.
Trisha LaFache:Well, I want to talk to you a little more about the manipulation of the case in the press, because they feel like it's such a great example of what happens when the criminal justice system and the media collide. In my opinion, Trump had his reasons for manipulating the case that go deeper than Marla. We just want to see Chuck get some help. It's my position that Trump is doing this, not because he really wants to be involved in this kinky shoe case, but because as long as he's on the phone with the New York Post and the Daily News, he remains somebody who's reportable.
Kevin J. Hynes:Yeah, I mean, look, there's definitely the notion out there certainly in the 90s may be true today, too, that you know, all press is good press. Right.
Trisha LaFache:Right.
Kevin J. Hynes:So whether or not people are talking about bad things about your good things about you, it's it's your names out there. I don't think that that's untrue. The other thing about you know, Donald Trump at the time, was that while yes, I think he was going through some financial issues at the time, no doubt. I do think that he was a character that the New York press love to cover.
Trisha LaFache:Yeah.
Kevin J. Hynes:Up or down. And what was really interesting about Trump in the 90s, and I think, you know, true until recently, and he said this right, "I can kill somebody on Fifth Avenue and get away with it." Right? What's interesting about that statement was that the press loved him. They just loved him. So, you know, they weren't really beating them up too bad. There was some bad stuff going on in his financial life.
Donald Trump Recording:Well, I was at a low point about a year and a half ago, I had a miserable year, it's big trouble.
TV News Reporter:They lost incentives, real estate, became a good place to put your dough.
Donald Trump Recording:Exactly.
TV News Reporter:People may get a warped perception of how things actually are because the New York Daily News and the New York Post every day, day in day out, they take stories like you and other popular kind of stories like that. And they just sort of jam it down everyone's throat. Now, were you ever near broke?
Donald Trump Recording:I was never new broke. I was having a good time. And I was a good year to get a divorce.
Kevin J. Hynes:I think he was a master manipulator, who understood if I can put other stuff out there that may be in the press won't be looking at the stuff that's not working for me.
Trisha LaFache:He was manipulating things here.
Kevin J. Hynes:There's no doubt. I mean, look, there's a number of people manipulating the press. In this case, there's something called a big case exception. Right? And, you know, people don't really talk about this much, but it's a 100% a true. And the big case exception means what happens when the press not only just reports it because they report a crime all the time, right. But when they dig in, and they take a big bite out of a case and it becomes one of the important things in in the city is what's happening with this case.
Trisha LaFache:And it's not that the press is you know, terrified, but they're getting a giant kick out of this.
Kevin J. Hynes:I can't say this enough how think about being a Here is the word I would think of... traumatizing. reporter back in 1990s. Right. What in your the crime beat what do you do? There were 13 homicides last night, 27 crac arrests, there was this m ny robberies, this many rapes? How fucking boring would tha be after a while? And i was happening day in day out be ause crime was so out o Yeah, I mean, they definitely were sick and tired of this shit, right? Here comes fucking Chuck Jones stealing shoes from Donald Trump's girlfriend.
Trisha LaFache:Yeah.
Kevin J. Hynes:I mean, the press went crazy, right? They went home, you know, every every headline every day, there was something to report on this case. And guess what? Most of it, untrue. You know that headline stuff is stuff you don't want when you're a prosecutor. The last thing you want because then you know other elements are going to play into it.
Trisha LaFache:Right.
Kevin J. Hynes:Other elements being the victims may be talking to the press, the victim's family may be talking to the press, the defendant may be talking to the press. And all these things swirl around you as a prosecutor when you need to be laser beam focused on what did the person do? What are the charges you want to bring? can I prove them a trial beyond a reasonable doubt? Yeah, that's hard enough. When you have the press up your ass, asking you all these questions and trying to get on top of the story and trying to get the exclusive. That's the other thing, right? Every one of these reporters in this particular case wanted an exclusive.
Trisha LaFache:Right.
Kevin J. Hynes:The stuff that they talked about that was absolutely untrue, given the facts, became a problem for us, but also in the DA's office with his 500 Assistant DA's at the time. Everyone knows who's got the shoe case. Right.
Trisha LaFache:Right.
Kevin J. Hynes:I came known as the shoe case. The show case, here's what's going on with the shoe case. And unfortunately, at the time, that was me.
Trisha LaFache:Okay, is there anything in this case that you could point to as a really good example of what you're talking about?
Kevin J. Hynes:Yeah, I mean, let's talk about the videotape.
Trisha LaFache:All right, let's talk about the videotape. I noticed that you had a very strong reaction to when I told you that The Post reported Chuck Jones licked and sniffed one of the shoes before stuffing it into his Santa bag.
Kevin J. Hynes:This is the perfect example I was talking about.
Trisha LaFache:You're lucky because I saved you from the part where the clip goes on to say that "one pair was so lush, that they virtually demand a fork and a knife."
Kevin J. Hynes:Yeah, I mean, so is what we're talking about. That shit was actually reported in the newspaper.
Trisha LaFache:Yes, I saw it.
Kevin J. Hynes:And that shit is 100% untrue.
Trisha LaFache:And how do you know?
Kevin J. Hynes:Well let me because I saw the video tape.
Trisha LaFache:How many times?
Kevin J. Hynes:About a billion times. Right? I mean, here's the deal. And look you know, this came out of trial. The video was a stop action pinhole camera.
Trisha LaFache:What the hell is the STOP action camera?
Kevin J. Hynes:I'm showing my age here so back in the day
Trisha LaFache:Okay.
Kevin J. Hynes:Instead, it would do stop action and what before all you kids understood how to do videos on your on your telephone and had a you know Insta book and you know, Face ram, there were actually th se things called pinhole ca eras. And what they were were li tle tiny cameras that could be put surreptitiously in di ferent places, right. And so yo can watch it The problem was th technology was not there for it to record, just you know, on oing recordings like you can do on your iPhone. stop action is and you know, the comic book geeks probably know this stuff, but like you would take one picture and then a couple seconds or you know, less than a second later another picture, another picture.
Trisha LaFache:Chuck is like oomph, oomph, oomph.
Kevin J. Hynes:Exactly!
Trisha LaFache:Strobing on this video.
Kevin J. Hynes:It's down the hall. The video camera was not placed in the bedroom. It was not placed in the closet. Look. Why? I don't know if I'm Trump and I'm, you know, having some sort of relationship with Marla Maples. I don't want to fucking video in my bedroom, right?
Trisha LaFache:You don't want to Trump Marla's sex tape?
Kevin J. Hynes:He's the best sex ever so..
Trisha LaFache:I just threw up in my own mouth. I'm mad at myself for saying that.
Kevin J. Hynes:You can read these articles. And I'm sure you know you have a bunch of them in front of you. I see a big pink binder.
Trisha LaFache:You're so jealous of my binder!
Kevin J. Hynes:But there is no truth to what was reported with this. That's then that's a problem. The camera was placed in a position where all you saw was the door. Right?
Trisha LaFache:Okay.
Kevin J. Hynes:And what you see on the video? Is someone opened the door.
Trisha LaFache:Uh huh.
Kevin J. Hynes:Close the door.
Trisha LaFache:Right.
Kevin J. Hynes:Locks the door. Looked through the peep hole. At that point on the video, it's very difficult to know who that is.
Trisha LaFache:Okay.
Kevin J. Hynes:But then he walks towards the camera and you see that it is Chuck Jones. Then he disappears because he didn't stand in the hallway.
Trisha LaFache:Right.
Kevin J. Hynes:There are no shoes in the hallway.
Trisha LaFache:Yeah.
Kevin J. Hynes:He disappears. 15 minutes later, while we're taking pictures every second. Exactly. You know, you see nothing. And then Chuck Jones reappears. He's got some sort of bag. Exactly. And he walks back to the door. And very importantly, he looks out the peep hole.
Trisha LaFache:Again.
Kevin J. Hynes:Again. Then he unlocks the door and he leaves with the bag.
Trisha LaFache:For those of you just joining us, looking out the peep hole, indicates what we in the biz call counter surveillance.
Kevin J. Hynes:Well, certainly we thought that right. It means obviously that he didn't have permission to be there. But the important part of this is all of these reports about him licking and kissing and sucking. Whatever shoes. All of these reports in the newspaper are not only manipulations, they're outright lies.
Trisha LaFache:Okay, let me tell you some of the stuff that the press says. "A Nab for Nipping at Marla's Heels." The Daily News says according to accounts from police and friends, detectives confronted Jones after they viewed a videotape from a hidden camera Maples installed in her bedroom to solve the mystery of the 150 to 250 pairs of shoes that disappeared over the years. Same article, in an attempt to solve the mystery, Mples had a video camera installed in her apartment during a recent renovation focused on her shoe closet. "Marla's Sole Search," Daily News, Trump said, "a hidden camera caught Jones red footed Tuesday going into Maples his bedroom closet and stuffing several pairs of shoes in a bag." I am fascinated by the fact that every single one of these articles indicates bedroom, closet, rummaging. None of them have the report accurate that it was actually hanging above the front door.
Kevin J. Hynes:It's because they didn't see it right. They didn't we didn't like show this video to people.
Trisha LaFache:Yeah.
Kevin J. Hynes:so the end of the day, you know, when you don't give the press machine stuff to eat, the monster makes up its own food. The press did a lot of things in this case, and they decided to make this video bigger than it was right? You cannot see the bedroom. You cannot see it. Did it sell papers? Hell yea it did. Here's the problem. I'm gonna have jurors come in at some point. And those jurors are gonna say,"Oh, I read that about that case. It's gonna be great. We're gonna see this really cool videotape of Chuck Jones licking and sniffing shoes."
Trisha LaFache:Yeah.
Kevin J. Hynes:And I don't get the goods on that Trish. I don't have...
Trisha LaFache:The lick and sniff.
Kevin J. Hynes:No. So that's why those types of cases big case scenarios where they're making shit up and putting in the press is a problem for the prosecution. In this case, it was a problem. I don't know why this came out this way. But it did. And you know, in the words of the president of the United States, this was fake news.
Trisha LaFache:I mean, God fake news.
Donald Trump Recording:Fake news, fake news, fake news, fake fake fake news. The news is fake. I'm the president and you have fake news.
Trisha LaFache:So we're talking about the press reporting erroneous facts. Repeatedly. Let me play you this clip of Herold Price Fahringer talking about the video.
Defense Attorney Recording:I haven't seen the video tape but that's controversial and and my investigation so far has led me to believe that he had gone in there and what's on the videotape is him taking some of his own property and putting it in the briefcase.
Kevin J. Hynes:Herold Price Fahringer is a good defense attorney. I don't think he's a psychic. So I don't know where he came up with that.
Trisha LaFache:Why would he say it at all? Why would he say no, just "No comment."
Kevin J. Hynes:They're all out manipulating the press.
Donald Trump Recording:Nobody loves the Bible more than I do. There is nobody that respects women more than I do. Nobody builds walls better than me. Nobody knows that better than me. Nobody even understands it but me. I alone can fix it.
Kevin J. Hynes:Donald Trump is obviously the master manipulator of the press.
Trisha LaFache:Right.
Kevin J. Hynes:He's the president of the United States, he's doing it today. He was doing it back then. He's always good at that. He's always got certain reporters on speed dial. We also learned at some point that Trump will under different names act as his own publicist. Right. We all found that out recently, right?
Trisha LaFache:Yeah.
Kevin J. Hynes:And I'm sure that was going on at the time too.
TV News Reporter:It's a tape recording of a 1991 interview conducted by a People Magazine reporter with somebody identifying himself as John Miller, supposedly a spokesman for Donald Trump.
Donald Trump Recording:It's somebody that he knows. He's somebody that has a lot of options. Frankly, he gets called by everybody. He gets called by everybody in the book. Women. He didn't want to make a commitment to her. He was living with Marla and he's got three other girlfriends.
Trisha LaFache:This is one of my favorite things of all time. Because you know, I, I really can only tolerate fun Trump stuff and not life or death Trump stuff, but I think he had multiple aliases as his press agent. One was John Miller that is mentioned in the clip, and the other one was John Baron. We all know Baron is the name that he and his third wife chose for their son. Here are some other fun facts about various times Trump functioned under an alias on his own behalf. New York Daily News reporter Linda Stasi said that one time Trump called her and left voicemail as an anonymous tipster who wanted her to know that Trump had been seen around town with various models. Apparently, calls from Baron happens so frequently, that it became an inside joke among the gossip columnist assigned to the city desk. Here's another alias. In 1992, Carolyn Galego, wrote a letter on his behalf to New York Magazine. That said that as his secretary, she had first hand knowledge of the fact that he has respect for women. The letter closed with the line, "I do not believe that any man in america gets more calls from women who wants to see him, meet him or go out with him. The most beautiful women, the most successful women, all women love Donald Trump." But the Washingtonian who reprinted the 1992 letter in 2017, was never able to confirm that any woman named Carolyn Galego. Ever, worked as a secretary for Trump.
Kevin J. Hynes:Listen, Trisha, this is a guy who got the New York Post to report on a front page headline that he was the best sex ever. Right and he does not lose when it comes to this stuff. All I can say is we were dealing with a master manipulator and it wasn't just with him, right, this Chuck's world, right, let's talk about the defendants world.
Trisha LaFache:Okay.
Kevin J. Hynes:Chuck is a professional publicist. He had Marla as a client.
Trisha LaFache:Yeah.
Kevin J. Hynes:And he did a very good job representing her before the shit went south.
Chuck Jones Recording:A few years ago I came to the rescue of a young lady. She had been battered by the media. She was under severe emotional stress as a result of her relationship with Donald Trump.
Kevin J. Hynes:He has all the reports on speed dial, he's picking up the phone and calling the reporters I'm sure and he's pushing his side of the story, his point of view.
Trisha LaFache:And this is the heyday of gossip, right? This is Richard Johnson, Mike Pearl, Bill Hoffman, Liz Smith, Cindy Adams. These are some of the most famous gossip columnist of all time, and Chuck can get them on the phone with a snap of his fingers.
Kevin J. Hynes:Yeah, it's not just him, right? It's his friends to like Robert M Heaphy. Right? The lawyer who originally helped out in this case, right? He's a guy I know from back in the day. He had friends who were report so I'm sure that Chuck and Heaphy were getting together and figuring out what type of point of view to put out there. And look, no disrespect to you Trish, but Tom Fitzsimmons. Right? Let's talk about Tom Fitzsimmons. The ex-NYPD officer, right? Well, at the time, he's a wannabe actor and we all know that you actors lie for a living, right?
Trisha LaFache:Actually a relatively successful published novelist.
Kevin J. Hynes:Yeah, I'm sure.
Trisha LaFache:Oh, God, I gotta get you the names of his books.
Kevin J. Hynes:Okay.
Trisha LaFache:East Side, West Side. City of fire. Confessions of a Celebrity Bodyguard. Confessions of a Catholic Cop. Confessions of a Suicidal Police Woman. Lots of confessions.
Kevin J. Hynes:Can't wait to read them. And then there's like Herold Price Fahringer, right? Herold Price Fahringer is
Trisha LaFache:Right. he lawyer at the time. He's a g od lawyer. He has contacts to the press. I mean, he represe ted Larry Flynt, right this guy
Kevin J. Hynes:And it gives them something to talk about at was fucking way around the p ess room. Then obviously the YPD right? The NYPD has their o n press office right? An what's interesting about tha is all day long, these c the bar at the end of the day. ps were reporting about crim and in ways that was so dep essing, right? Rape, robberie, murders, all of this bad shi every day all day. In walk the Chuck Jones case.
Trisha LaFache:It's fun crime.
Kevin J. Hynes:Well, I mean, it's it's strange crime. It's fucking bizarre crime, but this is what's happens. And so then when the press calls them to get information about the Chuck Jones case, and they don't have information to give. Do they sometimes shade the truth? Absolutely. Yes. No doubt in my mind. And finally get the DA's office right. Robert Morgenthau, the boss, had a press office, which was robust and led by a woman by the name of Barbara Thompson, who is a very tight lipped professional press person.
Trisha LaFache:Okay.
Kevin J. Hynes:And, you know, sometimes she would go off the record, OTR, and talk to the press about stuff that had to do with cases. I don't think it happened with our case. I honestly don't think it's something that the DA's office wanted, you know, to do anything else other than go away.
Trisha LaFache:Right.
Kevin J. Hynes:But you know, that's, that's the other entity. So again, four different entities talking to press. Trump and his people, Chuck and his people, NYPD in their press office, and the DA's office, you know, who's getting shit on by all four of those entities? The DA who's dealing with the case.
Trisha LaFache:Aww pobrecito Kevin!
Kevin J. Hynes:I don't know what that means.
Trisha LaFache:We've talked a lot about the process and what's happening with the press. So let's get back into the case itself.
Kevin J. Hynes:Right. The DA's office job is to prove the case beyond a reasonable doubt. Right. And there are two separate tracks going on at this point.
Trisha LaFache:Okay.
Kevin J. Hynes:First track is, you need to investigate the case to figure out what facts, circumstances, evidence you have in your possession in order to prove certain crimes. And the second track is to do plea negotiations with the defendant and his lawyer.
Trisha LaFache:Yes.
Kevin J. Hynes:The reason for this is simple, right? There are thousands of arrests every day in Manhattan, and only a small percentage of them are presented to the grand jury or go to trial.
Trisha LaFache:Right.
Kevin J. Hynes:So a lot of your cases end up in a plea negotiation, which, you know, is good for judicial economy, but it's also good for justice. Right?
Trisha LaFache:Yeah.
Kevin J. Hynes:So those are the two things we're doing. In this particular case, it involved interviewing witnesses, and trying to figure out what type of evidence we had that we can move forward. At the same time, we're negotiating with Chuck Jones and his lawyer.
Trisha LaFache:Trying to get a plea.
Kevin J. Hynes:Trying to make the case go away. Right, because remember, this is not a robbery, rape or homicide, right? This is a burglary of shoes.
Trisha LaFache:Yeah.
Kevin J. Hynes:So here's what we did. We brought in the witnesses right. The witnesses were Marla Maples, obviously the victim right? Her shoes, underwear.
Trisha LaFache:What?
Kevin J. Hynes:Her underwear, her shoes, her pantyhose. Were all stolen from her house.
Trisha LaFache:Okay.
Kevin J. Hynes:I mean, people make fun of it. I get it, but it's a burglary right? Somebody somebody went into her house.
Trisha LaFache:I would be fucking pissed. Don't take my shoes, motherfucker.
Kevin J. Hynes:Alrighty I hear yah. So that's that we interviewed Marla Maples. She explained to us that Chuck did not have permission to go into her apartment.
Trisha LaFache:Allegedly.
Kevin J. Hynes:And then she was shocked and appalled when she saw the videoand saw it was Chuck.
Trisha LaFache:Yeah.
Kevin J. Hynes:We then interviewed the the chiefs of security for the Trump Organization, Matthew Calamari.
Trisha LaFache:Matthew Calamari!
Kevin J. Hynes:Yes. And Dominic Pezzo.
Trisha LaFache:Right.
Kevin J. Hynes:Yeah. And remember, you know, Calamari is this big giant guy, right? 6'5, 275 pounds, looks like a lionback, right?
Trisha LaFache:Sausage fingers!
Kevin J. Hynes:You remember.Yes. Sausage fingers. He's somebody who was in charge of the security at the time. And then you had his sidekick, Dominic Pezzo.
Trisha LaFache:Yeah.
Kevin J. Hynes:You know, he talked like Joe Pesci. Looked like Joe Pesci.
Trisha LaFache:Yeah.
Kevin J. Hynes:So these two guys came in and they sat down with us and they explained to us, you know, Marla was saying that our shoes were missing. We set up this video camera and low and behold, we saw Chuck coming in.
Trisha LaFache:I heard I think Marla was complaining for over a year that her shoes were missing.
Donald Trump Recording:I called her Imelda Marcos. I said nobody can use this many shoes and she's not a clothes hog. You know, so it's very interesting. But I got very angry at her a number of times. I said, "How could you be using all these shoes," and she said,"somebody's stealing my shoes."
Trisha LaFache:And Trump just thought that she wanted to go on a shopping spree. And finally, you know, this resulted in in this camera being placed.
Kevin J. Hynes:Obviously, that was stuff that we heard too, but the reality was that...
Trisha LaFache:This is the day the moment in time.
Kevin J. Hynes:Yeah, that's all we could prove. And then we had, you know, Anne Ogletree, who was also present during the search of the office.
Trisha LaFache:Who is Heather Locklears first cousin, were you aware of that?
Kevin J. Hynes:I did not know that. What I did know is that Anne Ogletree was Marla's mother. She was a very lovely woman. And she's, she's someone else who told us what went on during the search when the shoes came flying out of the closet and ceiling.
Trisha LaFache:She was searching herself.
Kevin J. Hynes:Correct. And then, um, we also interviewed Giannetta and Higgins. Right? Who were the cops on the case. And Giannetta and Higgins. Just to say like, two great guys, salt of the earth, guys, right? But very different, right? Giannetta is this very tall, handsome guy who you know, I think he wanted to be an actor. At some point. He did some background roles, and Law & Order. Surprised you guys didn't cross. And really nice, sweet guy and very by the book, and then you had Higgins, right? Who basically had kind of a man crush on Giannetta because, you know, look, I had a little bit of man crush on like that guy. You know, he's a good looking dude. And Higgins was basically his sidekick, but a great sidekick. A really good dude.
Trisha LaFache:You should have pitched a show for them.
Kevin J. Hynes:It should have been the Giannetta and Higgins show.
Trisha LaFache:Yeah.
Kevin J. Hynes:Absolutely. They were quite a team, right? Just like Pezzo and Calamari.
Trisha LaFache:I was just gonna say that we have bookends over here.
Kevin J. Hynes:So on the investigative side, on that track, you interview all those people and you decide, okay, how am I gonna prove this case? Right. So yes, pretty straightforward. Then you got to marshall evidence, right? In this case, what we do is we bring all the evidence in and again, it's shoes, underwear, you know, panties or underwear.
Trisha LaFache:Can you say underwear again.
Kevin J. Hynes:Undawear! I mean, people didn't like make
Trisha LaFache:Lingerie. fun of my accent...Underwear. There was panty hose and guns,
Kevin J. Hynes:And those things then have to all be brought into he fetish magazine. the DA 's office and they have to be placed in, you know, in a evidence bag.
Trisha LaFache:Did you look through the Spike magazine? Did you, did you...
Kevin J. Hynes:No, it's not my thing Trish.
Trisha LaFache:Okay, that was that track and the other track was talking to Chuck's lawyer Herold Price Fahringer about getting this thing to go away.
Kevin J. Hynes:That's what we wanted.
Trisha LaFache:We're talking about pre indictment negotiations.
Kevin J. Hynes:Right.
Trisha LaFache:And we're gonna get a little bit further into how those went.
Kevin J. Hynes:Right.
Trisha LaFache:And what that process was like for your office. But in order to understand how the district attorney's office would go about negotiating with Chuck, I want to start by going over the charges in the case.
Kevin J. Hynes:Right.
Trisha LaFache:Okay. So there's three charges, two of them were felonies.
Kevin J. Hynes:Yep.
Trisha LaFache:And one of them was a misdemeanor, and the first charge is burglary, okay. And burglary is defined as the unlawful entering of someone's property with the intent to commit a crime there in. The crime could be larceny, as it was, in this case, however, the crime could also be assault, rape, kidnapping, or any other type of criminal offense.
Kevin J. Hynes:Right. I mean, that's, that's what it is. Right? It's entering someone's apartment, not being home, not
Trisha LaFache:I'm sorry, did you pick that name up? You being able to be there. But the added element is you're going to commit a crime while you're there. I mean, one of the funny dropped it.
Kevin J. Hynes:Well, I mean, we were friends. And one of the, things like burglaries are an interesting case, right? ecause it's not just break ng and entering, like people think, right, it is coming into place but also having this in ent to commit a crime. And, I r member one of the funny things l ke, you know, I was friend with John F. Kennedy, Jr. in th DA's offi you know, he had a lot of challenges in the DA's office. Right.
Trisha LaFache:He had a lot of challenges getting in the DA's office.
Kevin J. Hynes:I mean, the fact that the DA's office was a place where he decided he wanted to go when it could have went anywhere, right.
Trisha LaFache:Right. I think he really wanted to be there. That's proven.
Kevin J. Hynes:And the other thing was that like every move he made, talk about manipulation of the press, every move that kid made, was all they were all up in his shit.
Trisha LaFache:Right.
Kevin J. Hynes:So he was actually trial lawyer. So that his first case that he had to try was a burglary case, right burglary in second degree. And, again, as you said, we have to prove two elements, basically one, that you entered and remained unlawfully in a dwelling and secondly, that they that you had intent to commit a crime there, right. In this case, the facts of the case have funny right. So it's a crack epidemic. A lot of people are addicted to crack. They're looking to get money any way they can to get that crack. And we had this crackhead who climbed to the top of a building and decided to come through a skylight into an apartment. So he did that like.
Trisha LaFache:Wow, go crack head!
Kevin J. Hynes:Kind of like Batman.
Trisha LaFache:Yeah.
Kevin J. Hynes:And so he gets down into the apartment and the apartment owner comes in.
Trisha LaFache:Okay.
Kevin J. Hynes:And they walk in they think something's weird about the way the skylights open and they look into the bedroom and there is the crackhead sleeping in the bed of the of the apartment owner.
Trisha LaFache:How cozy!
Kevin J. Hynes:And so he was obviously arrested and the question became, is it a burglary? Right. Obviously, he entered and remained unlawfully but what was the crime he was going to commit?
Trisha LaFache:Taking a nap!
Kevin J. Hynes:What John was able to do was prove that there is no reason for him to be there other than to commit a crime.
Trisha LaFache:The idea here is that you have to infer that he had intent because there'd be no other reason to be there.
Kevin J. Hynes:Correct. And that's what happened.
Trisha LaFache:Yeah. My thing about burglary is that everybody always calls it robbery, right? So somebody will say, you know, such and such got robbed and I'm like, Oh, my God, is she okay? And they're like, yes, she wasn't home at the time.
Kevin J. Hynes:My house got robbed.
Trisha LaFache:Yeah, my house got robbed. Your house did not get robbed homes! You did not get robbed. People get robbed. Robbery is the taking on one's property with force from a person with force or the threat of force.
Kevin J. Hynes:But well, I mean, like, we should definitely point out that, you know, the listeners are getting a very good interpretation of what burglary is. I'm glad that you know we've straighten that out, but not at all.
Trisha LaFache:Okay back to Chuck. Chuck was charged with burglary with second degree, he was also charged with criminal possession of stolen property in the fourth degree, which at the time was classified as an E felony.
Kevin J. Hynes:Right, the shoes and the other the underwear and all of the stuff that was taken from her. The question was, was that was that property which he stole more than $1,000 in value? And that becomes an issue with trial, which I'm sure we'll talk about.
Trisha LaFache:We'll talk about it.
Kevin J. Hynes:Chuck was charged with that. And in order to prove that you have to prove not only that the person stole the property, but that they intended to use the property for themselves and not return them. Right. So you know, the joyriding statutes in New York, right? If you go and steal a car, and you drive around all night, and then you return the car to the place where you stole it from, that's not criminal possession of stolen property. Now, that is joyride.
Trisha LaFache:Joy riding.
Kevin J. Hynes:The difference is that you do not intend to keep it to keep it right? So what you have to do as a prosecutor is you have to prove not only that the person took it, but they intended to keep it. And in this case, You know, if there was desecration of the property or if there was some destruction, destruction of the property, then we could prove that.
Trisha LaFache:Right. And you have to prove that the value of the lot of Charles Jordanne shoes is in excess of $1,000. Because if not, then it's not a felony, it's a misdemeanor. And everybody knows that, you know, you guys, you big DA types are all about that sexy felony conviction, you don't really care so so much about your misdemeanors, which leads us to Chuck's final charge, which is the gun charges which were misdemeanor. So even though I have some strong opinions on these guns, the way that they were charged, they were charged as a misdemeanor. And so we'll just say the gun are the guns for now.
Kevin J. Hynes:The guns of the guns, right? I mean, he had guns in his office, he shouldn't have had them they weren't registered, it's illegal to crime. We charged them misdemeanor. That's that's kind of what we will look at. And the end of the day, those were the three charges that we looked at when we were investigating, trying to figure out what's the best thing we can we can charge him with if we have to. You know, we at the DA's office at this point wwanted the case to go away. Right, Donald and Marla also wanted the case to go away.
Trisha LaFache:Okay.
Kevin J. Hynes:No, Chuck, not so much.
Trisha LaFache:It didn't seem like Chuck wanted the case to go away.
Kevin J. Hynes:No. And look, that's fine. That's always a criminal defendants right to go to trial. And we understand that. But like I said, there's a lot of really bad crime going on at the time. This is why after we did the investigation, we looked at the charges, and we decided, you know what, we're gonna offer this guy a deal of a lifetime, right? We're gonna make an offer that hopefully he can't refuse. Yeah, so we offered him what's called an ACD. Yes. And what that is an adjournment in contemplation of dismissal. And it's pretty simple, right? If in fact, you do certain conditions, at the end of the six months, the case will be dismissed, right? The conditions we asked in this case, were as follows. You need to stay away from Marla for six months, you need to get counseling for your issue. And you're not going to rearrested. Three conditions.
Trisha LaFache:Right.
Kevin J. Hynes:You have to remember he's coming off of felonies right? Felony charges, felony burglary, which are mandatory state prison cases.
Trisha LaFache:From a C felony to an ACD, which is not a conviction and that's the thing. That Chuck says, Oh, I felt that if I pled guilty to any of that I'm pleading guilty to all of it. You're not pleading guilty to nearly a thing.
Kevin J. Hynes:All you gotta do is show up in court and have your lawyer say we accept the ACD and the case is done. He didn't want to do that. Right. He had he had other things going on.
Trisha LaFache:He had Marla on the brain as it were. There's no other reason because of the three things that you said he was supposed to do. I don't think he had a problem with getting some help. And he did. He historically didn't have a problem staying out of trouble because like you said, this is the first time he was ever arrested. So the thing I think was the hang up is staying away from Marla Maples. And that's why he starts making outrageous demands.
TV News Reporter:And the dispute over Marla Maples stolen she was back in the headlines today. Her ex publicist Chuck Jones says he will cooperate with prosecutors in closing the case against him on one condition. He wants to shoes back. He says he wants to destroy his booties so it won't return to haunt him.
Kevin J. Hynes:Yeah, I mean, there was a lot of talk about things that he wanted as a result of this plea negotiations. And you know, that became an issue also. Right.
Trisha LaFache:Yeah.
Kevin J. Hynes:So you know, there wasn't there was a report that he wanted the shoes back anyone the underwear back. I mean, he's not gonna....
Trisha LaFache:I mean I cannot. I cannot imagine being his defense attorney. Chuck. Here it is. It's the ACD he looks it over and he says, no I want the shoes back. I definitely need the shoes back and the panties. Give it all back to me. Because how do I know if you're not going to try me again? If you hold on to it? No, I need the contraband. I need the booty.
Kevin J. Hynes:I mean, it was a long, long drawn out negotiation. Right? We were in March of 93. At this point, right. Crime happenening in July of uh...
Trisha LaFache:And there were a couple times that you guys thought you were going to that he was going to sign it right?
Kevin J. Hynes:Certainly in this one, I mean, for this one, we thought for sure. Because what we had said to him was this, we said to his lawyer, this, this is the last offer this is this is the offer we're gonna make at this point. If you don't take this, we're gonna go to the grand jury.
Trisha LaFache:Right.
Kevin J. Hynes:We thought to that pressure, in addition to Fahringer being a good lawyer and a smart lawyer, that the case would go away.
Trisha LaFache:I know what I'm saying to him. You know, you were a defense attorney, what would you say to your client in this situation?
Kevin J. Hynes:You got to take the take the plea.
Trisha LaFache:Take the motherfucking deal.
Kevin J. Hynes:I mean, this is a deal of a lifetime. The reality is that you know, he didn't and rather than Fahringer showing up at the next court date, Chuck had another lawyer.
Donald Trump Recording:You're fired.
Trisha LaFache:Okay, here we are back in, "If the Hot Shoe Fits." Daily News. By the way, what the fuck does that mean hot shoe? It is like stolen shoe?
Kevin J. Hynes:Probably, yeah.
Trisha LaFache:The hot shoe fits?
Kevin J. Hynes:I don't know...
Trisha LaFache:"If the Hot Shoe Fits," says, "in case you thought the case against Chuck Jones and Marla Maples shoes had gone away, think again. In fact, it's even possible the Jones can get indicted on it. Jones may in fact be concerned because he's hired criminal defense attorney Sal Alosco to replace his first attorney Herold Price Fahringer.
Kevin J. Hynes:Behind the scenes, I don't know what happened. I will tell you I'm sure Fahringer was pissed off that he got this amazing deal out of the DA's office and that Chuck rejected it right? Fahringer is more of a, you know, like I said, you know, Wall Street banker looking type guy, right. Very good trial lawyer but not a real good match for Chuck right. Chuck wanted like a rough and tumble guy.
Trisha LaFache:Right.
Kevin J. Hynes:And so you know, at some point him and Fahringer part ways.
Trisha LaFache:Well he must have fired him because, you know, just so our viewers know it is extremely hard to get off a criminal case as a defense attorney. First of all, you can't get off the case because they didn't pay you for sure. There's no way he could walk away unless Chuck fired him and no defense attorney ever goes in front of a judge and says I want off this case because I hadn't been paid because the judge will hand you your ass.
Kevin J. Hynes:Yeah, I don't know if this was a financial issue. I think that it became down to Chuck, you know, going as far as he could with Fahringer with Fahriner probably telling him look that's the best deal you're gonna get. Chuck not liking that answer.
Trisha LaFache:And I know that you love when I jump in people's heads. But the press on Alosco, which I want to hear your your your take on him, is very much what Chuck says goes with Chuck says goes with Chuck says goes. You can tell he came into this case being told from his client from the beginning. I'm the captain of this ship, and I want to be proven innocent. I want my day in court. And if you fucking put a plea agreement in my face, and I've had a client say that to us before I'm going to trial, I'm going to beat this case. I'm going to fight this case, you know, and and, you know, that's just the way it was.
Kevin J. Hynes:I mean, look, Alosco had a reputation somebody who would you know, fight. Fight hard. Who would who would definitely you know, put up his Dukes.
Trisha LaFache:Put up his dukes..so cute!!!
Kevin J. Hynes:But once Alsoco came into the case, we knew that we probably gonna have to indict it.
Trisha LaFache:Welcome Sal, to the party. "He's No Shoe-in to Cop a Plea.". See, that was great. On Friday at 9am, while the Donald, I hate that, is speaking to CEOs in Mexico, and Marla is packing her bags to meet him, Chuck will be in Manhattan's criminal court, not copping a plea. Let me try to figure out how Chuck pitched this to his new attorney, Sal Alosco. He says, Sal, I don't want to take the deal. Okay, here's my here's my reasons, my man he says number one, I was given the keys to Marla's Central Parc South apartments, so I wasn't trespassing when I was caught on the hidden video camera. Number two, it's going to be an uphill battle for the DA to prove the value of the Charles Jourdane's was over$1,000. And number three, the guns were bullshit at at least two of them are over 100 years old.
Kevin J. Hynes:I mean, there's no doubt we you know, we had issues with the case. Right? And that's the reason we offered the ACD. Right? When you have a case, that isn't the strongest case you can have you make offers, we made an offer of an ACD in this case, and he rejected it. He basically was saying to us, he was you know, gunfight at the OK Corral. Right? Prove it. You know, you bring your guys I'll bring mine, right. That's a bad idea. If you're a defendant, right? If you're gonna push the DA into a corner, which is what he did with us, you're going to get it you know, it's going to come back at you, right? This guy wanted this case to continue. That's what he wanted. And that's what he got. Chuck Jones walked into court on that Friday and nine o'clock rejected the ACD. And they basically say to us prove the case. Go to the grand jury. Now honestly, from a personal standpoint, a lot of ways is like when you're out walking, you know, when you step in shit, right? Right. This fucking shit in this case is up in my sole, and I can't get it out.
Trisha LaFache:I love the shoe analogy! Okay, so in the case, we have Chuck turning down the ACD. Bad move, Chuck, if you're listening.
Kevin J. Hynes:Yeah, he put us up against the wall, basically.
Trisha LaFache:While y'all are up against the wall and preparing for trial, Donald Trump gets cold feet. Okay, there is some drama, or I should say more drama. Marla, she done and went and got herself knocked the fuck up. Which wouldn't necessarily be drama but for the fact that she and Donald had been on again and off again this entire time. So there was a time where they were engaged. They got into a big Rao in a hotel she took off her diamond probably not very clear cut engagement ring and threw it at him and said you can have your bimbos. Donald was seen around town with other women. He was dating Carla Bruni, allegedly apparently Madonna was trying to holler and the next thing you know they're back together again. She's pregnant with the baby that will be the lovely Tiffany.
Kevin J. Hynes:I can tell you this. Like there was a lot of stuff going on that relationship and on another podcast. I can tell you a story about Madonna and john F. Kennedy Jr.
Trisha LaFache:Anyways, back to Donald and Marla just for the time being. She's pregnant. They're engaged and now Donald has called off the wedding, once again.
Donald Trump Recording:Donald and Marla are calling it quits. I've really given a lot of women great opportunity. Unfortunately after theu are a star, the fun is over for me it's like a creation process. It's almost like creating a building. It's pretty sad.
Trisha LaFache:The cover of The New York Daily News July 23, 1993 says, "Chicken," in the largest font that you will ever see. And with an exclamation point it says that the baby is three months away. Donald so won't say I do so now he is embarrassing Marla for the third time.
Marla Maples Recording:It's destroy my reputation again here. You know it's already happened once just loving you. But what happens is because I love to, and now to know not to be married before we have the baby, oh my god.
Trisha LaFache:First, she's all over the papers for being a homewrecker. Then she's all over the papers for being on again off again with him. Then they were engaged. There's not engaged. And now she's knocked up and Donald is calling off the wedding. Once again, honey, Marla is destined to be a baby mama and not the second Mrs. Trump at this point. Things are not looking good for the marriage. It was also reported that for a time, Marla was carrying her wedding dress around with her everywhere she goes. So Trump is saying he's not gonna marry Marla, but he still plans on seeing her the relationship it's gonna work out. He's excited about the baby but he's just marriage phobic. But in the article, there's a sub section that says reader feedback. And it has a picture of this old school rotary phone and its caption, "should Donald marry Marla Maples." For a yes call 1-900-773-3044. For No call 1-900-773-3050. It's quite possibly one of the greatest things I've ever seen. We are going to post this caption on our Instagram at Heeled.Podcast. Kevin Can you recreate this moment for me?
Kevin J. Hynes:I was excited about this too but for very different reasons.
Trisha LaFache:Because you called the yes line?
Kevin J. Hynes:No, I was excited because at the end of the day, every story about Donald and Marla breaking up, being pregnant, getting married, not getting married, was a story that was not about the Chuck Jones case. And that's what we were focused on.
Trisha LaFache:Comment if you think that Kevin called the "yes line" on our Instagram.
Kevin J. Hynes:Chuck walks out of that courtroom that day and refuses the ACD and his lawyer takes a hard stance. His lawyers like you know what bring it.
Trisha LaFache:He's running and gunning.
Kevin J. Hynes:And it's a game of chicken and for us what we need to do at that point is go to the grand jury.
Trisha LaFache:Oh my God, I cannot believe you guys are going to the grand jury. What was that? Like?
Kevin J. Hynes:It's like one of those movies where people are on a raft right? It's a raging river and it's headed towards this huge waterfall and like everybody knows it's coming, but you can't stop it.
Trisha LaFache:Next time on Heeled... Chuck right now has got the world by the balls.
Kevin J. Hynes:I was scared to death that something was gonna happen and I was gonna watch my career go down the tubes.
Trisha LaFache:Chuck drops a motion to dismiss bombshell.
Kevin J. Hynes:Losing the shoe case? It's over!
Trisha LaFache:You didn't want to be the shoe case winner?
Kevin J. Hynes:I didn't want to be known as the shoe case winner!
Trisha LaFache:She's destroyed one American family and she's trying to destroy another.
Kevin J. Hynes:How would you feel if one of your friends started stealing your shoes?
Trisha LaFache:Chuck is not willing to let go of Marla.
Kevin J. Hynes:This episode is all about, "hey, I'm winning. I'm on top of the world. Let me fuck myself over." The guy's got some sort of obsession for her and he's not going to let it go.
Trisha LaFache:Justice would be better served if this prosecution were terminated.
Kevin J. Hynes:We had done everything right. It was a shock.
Trisha LaFache:Heeled is a Justkill Production. Produced by Tandace Khorrami, Luke Groneman and Tyler Patrick Jones. It's written by Kevin J. Hynes and myself, Trisha LaFache. The Heeled theme music was written by Chad Crouch. Additional shout out to Mike Shafranak, our editing wizard. Our sound engineer, Kyle Raps and to Max Alcabez, owner of Pink Cloud Studios in Los Angeles where we record these shoes-scapades. Follow us on our Instagram at heeled.podcast or check us out on our website heeledpodcast.com. Tune in next week for another exciting episode of Heeled.