After a last-ditch effort to negotiate a plea agreement, Chuck Jones refuses the offer and forces the most bizarre trial in New York City history...
After a last-ditch effort to negotiate a plea agreement, Chuck Jones refuses the offer and forces the most bizarre trial in New York City history...
Previously on Heeled...
Kevin J. Hynes:He has decided this entire case, this entire city, this entire nation is waiting for the Chuck Jones trial.
Chuck Jones Recording:There was a big investigation over why this case was even brought. Trump was friends with Morgenthau. There was a lot of political pressure.
Kevin J. Hynes:Yes, Robert M Morgenthau did go to the Trump wedding,
Trisha LaFache:Chuck insisted that he and Marla had recently walked hand in hand down Fifth Avenue.
Kevin J. Hynes:If Marla is walking down Fifth Avenue with Chuck, I mean, we're done. We get this package and I opened it up and inside is this picture of Marla Maples, naked.
Chuck Jones Recording:I have never faxed anything to Marla Maples regarding Marla Maples nude photographs.
Kevin J. Hynes:They were like,"what do you think this is?" And they point inside the shoe. And when I looked inside, I saw a stain. I'm watching the 10 O'Clock News, the anchor says,"we're gonna go live to Mike Sheehan, who has breaking news on the Chuck Jones case." That moment is when I knew that all was right with the world.
Trisha LaFache:I'm your host, Tricia LaFache and this is
Heeled:The Curious Case of Marla Trump's Shoes. You got to take me back into this room.
Kevin J. Hynes:I'm doing work at my desk. It's you know, magic hour time people leaving the office and I'm sitting in there still working.
Trisha LaFache:Okay.
Kevin J. Hynes:And Giannetta and Higgins are doing what they were asked to do by me, which is take the shoes, pair them up and put them into individual baggies, right.
Trisha LaFache:Okay.
Kevin J. Hynes:In the middle of that, I hear Higgins say, "Oh fuck, what's this? G. What's this?" Something like that. So I look up and then I see Higgins showing Giannetta the inside of a shoe like a pump right? Believe me, before this, I had no idea what the word pump meant. So like I got a real education pump. I don't know. And then I see Giannetta just start laughing so I'm like,"what's up?" And they're like,"You got you got to see this," right. So I get up. I roll over there and I look and you know, I see some sort of stain inside this particular shoe.
Trisha LaFache:Can you describe the stain?
Kevin J. Hynes:It didn't look like a sweat stain, right? Sweat stains a lot of times you see like, you know residue of like salt right sweat.
Trisha LaFache:Right.
Kevin J. Hynes:This was more like a splotch.
Trisha LaFache:like a war shack test?
Kevin J. Hynes:Opie and Anthony friends out there will remember this description, right? It it looked like a map of Hawaii. It looked like something had happened inside that shoe. That was not normal.
Trisha LaFache:Okay.
Kevin J. Hynes:They were laughing and I was kind of horrified. I said, "alright, what do you think this is?" We kind of all kind of knew what we thought it may have been. So I did what any good prosecutor would do and I wanted the the cops to recheck every shoe to see if there were any more splotches. They then went through all of the shoes again. Remember now I think there were like five or six that had this unique splotch.
Trisha LaFache:Trace patterns.
Kevin J. Hynes:Trace patterns of something. And, listen Trisha, I'm gonna be honest with you right. I, in my wildest dreams would not think that a man would do that to a shoe.
Trisha LaFache:So you're telling me you you've been on this case for some time now? And in all of that time, it never occurred to you that maybe there would be some islands in the shoe?
Kevin J. Hynes:Look i'm not a big foot guy!
Trisha LaFache:The guy admitted to having a foot fetish and you never thought maybe Oahu, or Kona, a little Maui.
Kevin J. Hynes:I'm not a big foot guy. Right? But like I remember Pulp Fiction and like this is holding like you gave Marcellus's girlfriend a foot massage and this discussion over whether or not that sexual? And that's the man is that's about as feety as I got. It was definitely the most unique situation that I was ever in in the Manhattan DA 's office. It was definitely the most unique situation I was in as a lawyer. But that's what happened. There was splotches in the shoes. We identified those shoes that had the splotches, and we bagged them up and I had the police officers take them to the serology department within the medical examiner's office.
Trisha LaFache:It never once crossed your mind that there would be splooge in the shoes?
Kevin J. Hynes:I was a 29 year old assistant district
Trisha LaFache:A virile young man. attorney..
Kevin J. Hynes:I just never really thought that somebody would have that type of relationship with a shoe.
Trisha LaFache:And on New Year's Eve 1993, it is reported in the New York Daily News that the substance in the shoes is in fact, male bodily fluid.
Kevin J. Hynes:Serology came back pretty quick. And they told us that the splotch or the stain in the shoes was in fact, semen. You know, look the legal implications of this. I know it's funny, and it's Goofy, and it's weird, but the legal implications are important because again, for the criminal possession of stolen property charge, we had to prove that not only had he taken the shoes, but that he hadn't just borrowed them, hee was gonna give them back and if they are desecrated in any way, if they are damaged in any way, that is proof that he is not going to give them back. Certainly, if he put his male bodily fluid in the shoe. It is not something that he would then return to her. It's an important element of the crime of criminal possession of stolen property. And so we had to loop that up and lock that in and make sure that, you know, we had that piece of evidence ready to go.
Trisha LaFache:Right. So this is kind of back to the example you used with the joy riding statute when we were talking about it a couple weeks ago?
Kevin J. Hynes:I mean, look, I mean, the property itself needs to be stolen property, which means that you need to want to possess it for....
Trisha LaFache:Ever!
Kevin J. Hynes:Well, and and not give it back. Right. So that's a difference between joyriding.
Trisha LaFache:Right. So it is the district attorney's position that the semen in the shoes is further evidence of Chuck's intent to maintain possession of the shoes.
Kevin J. Hynes:Yes, that was our position.
Trisha LaFache:That was your position, however, B Anthony Morosco for one, did not see it this way. And here's what he had to say about the DA's inpending motion for an order to have Chuck Jones submit to a blood or DNA test that would establish whether he created the stains in Marla's shoes. Quote, "This is the most scurrilous thing I have ever seen in my 30 years as a lawyer, Manhattan District Attorney Robert Morgenthau goes to Donald Trump's wedding, and a week and a half later, this evidence pops up."
Kevin J. Hynes:Pops up.
Trisha LaFache:"This is all about Donald Trump, erroneously thinking that Chuck Jones has kinky pictures of Marla Maples. They are destroying this man and his family before he has a chance at vindication in this trial. If they ask for a blood test from my client, I'm going to ask for a blood test from Donald Trump. And I'm going to ask for all of the shoes that belong to Marla to see if there's stains on all of them." End quote. This sounds like a threat Kev!
Kevin J. Hynes:He knew it wasn't a threat. I knew it wasn't a threat. It was it was Morosco playing to the press. Just like Fahringer played to the press. Just like Chuck played to the press. Just like, you know, Alosco played to the press. This is more playing to the press.
Trisha LaFache:But what do you think about Morosco saying that one week Morgenthau does the Electric Slide at the Trump wedding the next week, Chuck's got to give up the blood.
Kevin J. Hynes:He didn't say that if anybody knew Robert Morgenthau, they knew that he not do the Electric Slide.
Trisha LaFache:But what do you do the cha cha slide?
Kevin J. Hynes:It was bad timing that this happened immediately after the wedding, that Morgenthau was there. Yes, it was bad timing. But all we were saying is we are going to test the splotch to see if that is in fact Chuck Jones semen. That's all we were doing in that motion. What he was saying was he's gonna have Trump tested. He's gonna have all the shoes tested, Trisha, it's all bullshit. It sells papers. It makes him sound like he knows what he's doing, but it's not a legal defense. And I knew that Andrias wasn't going to go for it anyway, so I didn't really care what Morosco was saying the papers at that point.
Trisha LaFache:Okay, so you make the motion for Chuck's blood or DNA to be tested.
Kevin J. Hynes:We made the application to Judge Andrias. He signed the order. Immediately after I think the next day, a small amount of Chuck's blood was taken, it was analyzed, it was tested against the semen and it came back that the semen in the shoes was in fact, from Chuck Jones.
Trisha LaFache:Did Morosco ever move to have Trump tested?
Kevin J. Hynes:No, of course, that he could look more again. Morosco was a really smart lawyer, he knew that he could not make that application and he didn't to his credit.
Trisha LaFache:Judge Andrias did in fact rule that the evidence recovered from Chuck's office was lawfully recovered under the legal doctrine of consent, and therefore the shoes, underwear and guns recovered from Chuck's office would be admissible at trial. Congratulations, Kevin.
Kevin J. Hynes:Thank you. We're very happy with the outcome.
Trisha LaFache:With all the legal issues now settled, the trial was scheduled to begin and last ditch efforts were made by the prosecutors to make the case go away yet again.
Kevin J. Hynes:Yeah, I mean, we had won the hearings, it was going to trial. I had the idea to go to my bosses and ask them to please allow me to re-offer an adjournment in contemplation of dismissal with the understanding that if Chuck abided by three conditions, those being get psychiatric care for his obsession with Maraand her shoes, yeah, stay away from Marla and not get re-arrested for six months. If he did those three things, then we would dismiss the indictment and he would have no criminal record.
Trisha LaFache:Those things seem like they should be pretty easy to do.
Kevin J. Hynes:I think that it was the proper and just disposition to this case. I thought that from the beginning. The problem was that Chuck didn't think that way right.
Trisha LaFache:Chuck was not ready.
Kevin J. Hynes:No, I think he looked at this as this was his swan song. This was his you know, big moment because remember every time he came into court it was packed right? The courtroom was packed with with, you know, people from the press, with looky loos, you know, DA's, defense attorneys, everyone like wanted a piece of this case and Chuck was the you know, is the center of attraction.
Trisha LaFache:He had some delusions of grandeur popping off.
Kevin J. Hynes:I think he thought that maybe he'd be able to prove that, you know, we in some way had conspired against him. Again, I don't know what was in his head, right. But he refused that offer, which was, you know, shocking to me.
Trisha LaFache:I agree. Next up is jury selection. So tell us what kind of jurors were you're looking for?
Kevin J. Hynes:I mean, I was just looking for people who like, understood.
Trisha LaFache:But like mostly women, right? Understood what it would feel like to have your shoes taken from you?
Kevin J. Hynes:It came down to this. Are you gonna be able to listen to me? And allow me to tell the story, right?
Trisha LaFache:Did you have to ask people had they heard of Donald Trump? And could they be fair and impartial and judgment involving a case that was Donald Trump adjacent?
Kevin J. Hynes:These were all things that were asked probably by the judge but I remember asking you know, "do you read the New York Post? Do you read the Daily News? Have you heard about this case?
Trisha LaFache:The New York Times? do you read it all?
Kevin J. Hynes:Have you heard about this case? Can you be fair and impartial right? That's that's the the standard. Can you be fair and impartial? Stevie Scirocco used to say, "take a look at somebody's shoes. If the shoes look okay..."
Trisha LaFache:Yeah so whaat are you talking about Kevin1?
Kevin J. Hynes:That's what I was looking at. I was looking at the potential jurors shoes.
Trisha LaFache:Sp you wanted good shoes or bad shoes? Better looking shoes, right? So somebody who cared about shoes!
Kevin J. Hynes:That's a bad analogy.
Trisha LaFache:Did you ask them if they believe that Donald Trump was the best sex Marla Trump had ever had?
Kevin J. Hynes:No, that's funny, but no I didn't. I asked. I asked if they could be fair and impartial. And if they in my mind, I remember thinking are they gonna be able to understand a straightforward story? Because look, our story was very straightforward.
Trisha LaFache:You were trying to boil it down.
Kevin J. Hynes:Boil it down to this. Chuck Jones did not have permission to be Marla Maples apartment. He went in there. He took her shoes. He didn't have permission and authority to have those shoes. And then later when they did a search of his place, they found the shoes, underwear and guns.
Trisha LaFache:So after you pick the jury, did you guys open that day?
Kevin J. Hynes:No, I remember the next morning right. So the next morning had to deliver the opening statements. So got there. Court usually started at like 10 o'clock and we were on the sixth floor. And Andrias's courtroom was on the 13th floor. So you just get on the elevator and I remember, like getting off the elevator on 13 and being like, Oh wow, there's a there's a lot of people in the hallway. And it was like you know, this os again, pre-OJ, right? And I'm not saying that there was OJ like interest in this case, but there were a lot of press there. Right. So we I rolled through the hallway, you know, you get your you get your shopping cart kind of shoes in it right? Well, I got like Giannetta and Higgins with me too, right? So they're the cops who bring all this stuff. And I remember going into, you know, Andrias's courtroom, which, you know, Andrias's courtroom was a big, giant majestic courtroom, right. Probably had like 25, spectator benches.
Trisha LaFache:Did Giannetta and Higgins sit at the table with you?
Kevin J. Hynes:No, no, no, no, the cops have to sit outside because they're gonna be potential witnesses.
Trisha LaFache:Oh, right.
Kevin J. Hynes:They did help me bring this stuff in. Okay. And so then, you know, you sit at the prosecution table, which people may or may not know the prosecution tables is next to the jurors. There's a reason for that because you want to defendant it as far away from the jurors as you can in case the defendant gets unruly. I remember walking in, there's all this buzz going on in the courtroom and you know, the the press people who I know are all like saying stuff and asking me questions. And I have to ignore that. Right. I see Mikey Sheehan from Fox Five News. He's there and...
Trisha LaFache:Giving you the thumbs up.
Kevin J. Hynes:He waves, whatever. You know, at that point, look, he was very smart, because he didn't want to look because everybody wanted to know where Sheehan got that exclusive. about the splooge in the shoes. And you know, he he knew he got it for me. I knew I gave it to him. But we didn't want the other person to know that. But anyway, we get in there, there's a buzz going on. And Chuck comes in and like this guy walks down the center aisle, like he's the Crown Prince of you know, Manhattan, right? And he's waving to people. And it's the opening statement, right? It's like, again, this big majestic courtroom and, you know, Andrias comes out all rise, boom, boom. And, and we're I'm about to get up and talk about stolen shoes. Talk about an unreal situation. And so in this particular case, we opened and we opened on the fact that, again, very straightforward case. Chuck broke into her place, took her stuff. When they arrested him...
Trisha LaFache:There was a bag over like Santa Clause.
Kevin J. Hynes:It was it was very, very, very straightforward.
Trisha LaFache:Right.
Kevin J. Hynes:Morosco, on the other hand, had different ideas, right? So he stood up in fence during the defense opening statement, and he talked about a vast conspiracy that was orchestrated by Donald Trump himself, and in under his theory, Donald Trump working in conjunction with Robert M Morgenthau, other prosecutors within the DA's office, including myself, the New York City Police Department, maybe the mayor's office, everyone in the city had conspired to bring this case against Chuck Jones in order to discredit him and to make him look like a lunatic because he had some naked pictures and diaries of Marla that if they came out, then because he was a convicted felon, no one would believe him.
Trisha LaFache:Okay.
Kevin J. Hynes:It was a very, very interesting and imaginative opening statement.
Trisha LaFache:But how would they not believe him if they came out?
Kevin J. Hynes:I don't think it made much logical sense.
Trisha LaFache:Okay.
Kevin J. Hynes:We never found the naked pictures. We never found the diaries. I don't know what that that was all about. But this...
Trisha LaFache:The theory is nonsensical.
Kevin J. Hynes:But I'll tell you this, do you know, it was really interested in that theory? All the press that was in the courtroom.
Trisha LaFache:Right.
Kevin J. Hynes:Because they wrote about it like crazy, right.
Trisha LaFache:Yeah.
Kevin J. Hynes:And, you know, the press again, we've talked about this, the press was not interested in Kevin Hynes's straightforward opening statement about, you know, the Chuck Jones in his ability.
Trisha LaFache:But see, this is another thing that I think you've said things like, you know, Morosco is a good attorney because he knows how to play the papers. But I don't believe that you're a good defense attorney because you play with the papers. I actually believe the opposite. I believe you're a good attorney, defense attorney because you you do a good job in the courtroom and you make arguments that makes sense in the courtroom. What you do in the in the papers only pisses off the judge if the judge is pissed or is reading the papers.
Kevin J. Hynes:I agree with you. But again, this case is so unique, right?
Trisha LaFache:Yeah.
Kevin J. Hynes:Why is it unique? Well, Chuck Jones, first of all, is a very unique defender. Right?
Trisha LaFache:Right.
Kevin J. Hynes:He's also publicist. Right? And we know from the beginning when he got locked up, what did he do we call the press right. He was talking to the press the whole time, he wanted his lawyers to talk to the press. He wanted his lawyers to play to the press. The first three rows of the courtroom every day was packed with press people, right? These people would talk to Chuck on the way in in the way out, they would talk to Morosco on the way in the way out. This was what Chuck wanted. He wanted a three ring circus. He wanted to be in the center ring, and he got it. That's what he did.
Trisha LaFache:Yeah.
Kevin J. Hynes:And so whether or not you think Morosco was a good lawyer?
Trisha LaFache:I don't.
Kevin J. Hynes:I would say in the courtroom, he was a good lawyer. He knew what he was doing. He had a he had a defense that in his mind, played not only to his client, but also to the potential jurors who may think Donald Trump is a piece of shit. And he went after this guy, and that's bad. And that was the defense. Whether or not it worked at the end of the day didn't really matter. And believe me, this fucking thing was a roller coaster, which we're about to talk about. And so did he do a good job? I think he did a good job for what Chuck wanted him to do.
Trisha LaFache:He's trying to get what they call prejudicial spillover. Right?
Kevin J. Hynes:Yeah. I think that in any criminal defense case, your client knows best what the facts and circumstances are, right? And so whatever facts and circumstances Chuck was feeding Moroscoo, Morosco bought into and decided I'm gonna have to construct this defense, and that's what he did. And his opening statement was about this conspiracy that I guess I was involved in, that I didn't know about, but I was involved.
Trisha LaFache:And the first witness called in the People of the state of New York versus Charles Jones is none other than Marla Maples Trump on Friday, January 28, 1994.
Kevin J. Hynes:Yep. So obviously, in order to prove our case, we have to put the victim on the stand. We decided to put Marla on the stand first.
Trisha LaFache:Okay.
Kevin J. Hynes:She, in a very common collective way, went through the facts of the case and what was a little bit different and interesting. You have to remember Marla had just given birth.
Trisha LaFache:Yeah.
Kevin J. Hynes:Yeah. Tiffany, um, her daughter was, I think, you know, under six months old.
Trisha LaFache:Yeah. She was actually born in October of 1993. And we're in January.Let me
Kevin J. Hynes:Hold on one second...November..... December. Oh so like three months.
Trisha LaFache:She's three months old. I'll tell you what, what a snapback.
Kevin J. Hynes:Yeah I know.
Trisha LaFache:Marla was looking pretty good. I can't believe Marla was actually married in in December. She had like a 24 inch waist.
Kevin J. Hynes:She had a rough six months if you think about it. Right? So she has she gives birth in October. She gets married in December. She's on the stand in January.
Trisha LaFache:Yeah.
Kevin J. Hynes:Look, say what you want. I mean, but what I do remember is her having to take every couple hours because you know, her testimony was a couple hours long. Yeah, should take a break. And then she would then leave to go into the Judges robing room to umm to ....
Trisha LaFache:To pump.
Kevin J. Hynes:Thank you. Yeah, thank you, Trisha.
Trisha LaFache:The other usage of pump.
Kevin J. Hynes:I didn't know that pump meant shoes. I didn't know that pump meant that. All right, guess.
Trisha LaFache:Pump.
Kevin J. Hynes:Pump.
Trisha LaFache:Normalize the pump.
Kevin J. Hynes:So anyways, she had to do that, which was kind of cool.
Trisha LaFache:So she started to testify.
Kevin J. Hynes:She started testifying. And one of the things that, look, I wouldn't say was psychological torture, but you have to think about this, right? You start questioning your own your own mental ability at this point, right? You come home every day and something's missing from your house. It's kind of weird, right? At the time she was dating Donald Trump, right? And they would meet, you know, for dinner or, you know, he would pick her up from her apartment, at Trump Parc and you know, she talked about how she would come downstairs, and she'd be late, and he would be upset.
Trisha LaFache:Very upset.
Kevin J. Hynes:And so why are you late? And she would say because I can't find a certain pair of shoes.
Trisha LaFache:He couldn't stand it. In fact.
Donald Trump Recording:I called her Imelda Marcos. I said nobody can use this many shoes and she's not a clothes hog. You know, it's very interesting. But I got very angry at her a number of times I said, "How could you be using all the shoes." And she said, "somebody's stealing my shoes."
Kevin J. Hynes:He did not believe that her shoes were missing right and and he was he was wondering to himself, have I gotten myself in a situation with someone who's a nut, right? Her point of view is she trying to explain to her boyfriend that somebody's stealing stuff out of my apartment. Now look, the name of the apartment she lived in was Trump Parc. Meaning that he was the owner of the building. His security is in charge, right? So she's telling him somebody is breaking it. Now if you're Trump, you're probably like, Look, I'm a landlord. There's no way people are breaking into her apartment must be a crazy person.
Trisha LaFache:And this is allegedly going on for over a year.
Kevin J. Hynes:Yes, that's correct. And I think in the beginning, she probably questioned herself to say what why do I think this stuff is missing? But then it came to a point where it was just, it was too much to bear. So she explained it to him and you know, he did the right thing eventually and had Trump's security put the the camera in. Look, it's strange, it's goofy. You know, the jurors laughed at times. It was very light at that point. But she was going through a situation where she later learned that somebody was breaking into her house and stealing her shit. And that's, that's, you know, that can be harrowing. So she explained all that. She didn't want to believe that this was happening because you can imagine a woman living alone in Manhattan during a time when crime is out of control, thinking someone is in here taking my stuff. And the worst part of it is no one was believing her and I think that was a time when she was able to explain how she was really feeling and I think she was victimized and she was able to explain to the jury how this strange event, weird event, made her feel victimized.
Trisha LaFache:Okay, so Marla feels victimized. The prosecution asked Marla Maples whether or not she ever paid Chuck Jones for any of the work that he did for her as a publicist. To which she responded, "No, I never paid him." Well Marla, now you got me all fucked up. I've actually had a publicist before, and they don't work for free. And they certainly do not work for free for six and a half years.
Kevin J. Hynes:Look, Chuck was doing well for himself. Right? We talked about this. He had a million dollar house in Greenwich, Connecticut. He obviously had a successful business. Did he take on a client who didn't pay him? Yeah, you know what, you've done this. Criminal defense attorney. I've taken on clients who ended up not paying me. There was this understanding between them that he was doing work for her for free.
Trisha LaFache:Yeah but when she got a $600,000 deal for No Excuses Jeans as the spokesperson or employed to do an interview for Diane Sawyer, which was the top rated interview ever for the Diane Sawyer show at the time and she got paid to do that. She never thought, Oh, you know what, maybe I should pay Chuck for all of the work that he's done. Now, I am not blaming the victim here. Let's be clear. Chuck is responsible for his actions. But I am saying to myself, nothing is for free in life. Young, beautiful, smart, intelligent, savvy women out there, you need to know that when you think there are no strings attached to stuff, there are strings attached, and we all need to be responsible for our part. She is not responsible for his obsession with her. She's not responsible for the conduct that he committed. But I'm just saying I'm starting to get a little bit more of a glimpse into the questions that I posed at the beginning of this thing of like, "What are they talking about?" What is Tom Fitzsimmons talking about when he says the way that Marla and Trump treated Chuck? That's all I'm saying.
Kevin J. Hynes:I think that we know now looking back, that anybody who is in that Trump orbit was fucked up in some way as a result of Trump. Right? Did Marla have a hand in that with Chuck? Sure. I mean, but at the end of the day, it really doesn't matter. Right? We brought that out on direct because we knew that was going to be part of the defense.
Trisha LaFache:It's a great idea.
Kevin J. Hynes:The defense being, "he was shit on, he was treated like shit. He had all these secrets." Right. So that's why we did it. It's really not. It's much harder. Yeah. Should you have paid him? Sure. The end of the day, the dude did very well with the Trump Organization. So he was making plenty of money with them.
Trisha LaFache:My favorite part of that testimony is when she says, the last straw was when she went to look for a pair of blue suede shoes, and they weren't there. And she had remembered wearing them just a few days ago. Also, how could she not know it was Chuck I mean, who else was it gonna be?
Kevin J. Hynes:Again? We're talking 1993/92, crime is out of control. Burglaries. Hundred a day, right? I don't think you think your friends coming in and stealing your shoes. I mean that how bizarre is that? And what a betrayal and that's the other thing she talked about in her in her testimony, which I thought was really, really telling when she explained to the jury that when she found that it was Chuck Jones when she saw that videotape, she felt betrayed.
Marla Maples Recording:It was a emotional time. I just kept asking why did you do this? Why did you do this? He was just very cloudy. You know, he was very, it's almost like he wasn't there. He just kept sort of staring and repeat is that it is over it doesn't matter.
Kevin J. Hynes:She did a good job and that's what she needed to do when and then it was time for her to be cross examined.
Trisha LaFache:This is when the fireworks really start.
Kevin J. Hynes:She testified on direct on a Friday.
Trisha LaFache:Yeah.
Kevin J. Hynes:And then that following Monday, we began t the cross examination Marla Maples Trump by B. Anthony Morosco.
Trisha LaFache:We have footage of Marla handling some boots.
Marla Maples Recording:I have never looked on the inside of my boots before. The bottoms are general, this is appears I recall I had in my bag, in my walk in closet, as I showed you.
Trisha LaFache:I actually didn't imagine how badly damaged these boots are. But the boots, they're white cowboy boots, and they're slit from the top of the boots straight down the center, both the left and the right boot. And so she's holding them up. And he's questioning her about them very, very aggressively. And he's asking her if they're in the same condition as the last time she saw them. He's getting really, really frustrated with her.
B. Anthony Morosco:Are the in the same condtion as the last time I saw them before they were discovered in Jones's office?
Marla Maples Recording:They look like they've been roughed up quite a bit actually, sir.
B. Anthony Morosco:They've been roughed up the last time you saw them?
Trisha LaFache:He says,"they're roughed up? And she says, "I don't know. I'm so confused." Then Judge Andrias jumps in and he tries to clarify what Morosco is asking her. What were you thinking about all this?
Kevin J. Hynes:Looking back on it now? Yeah, I think that Morosco had a point of view.
Trisha LaFache:Yeah, I do. I agree.
Kevin J. Hynes:His point of view was from his client. And his client has told him over and over and over again, she's mean, she's nasty. She doesn't care about me. She doesn't care about anybody. She only cares about herself. Now, if you're a defense attorney, what you want to do is you want to show that to the jury.
Trisha LaFache:Yeah.
Kevin J. Hynes:Because remember, part of the part of the defense is, she's a bad person. Even if this happened, you should just throw it all out, because it's some kind of conspiracy. And you know, she's a bad person. So you don't really need to sympathize with her jury. So I'm going to show her to be a psycho, a bad person.
Trisha LaFache:Yeah.
Kevin J. Hynes:The way you do that is you go hard at the witness, right.
Trisha LaFache:Yeah.
Kevin J. Hynes:And this dude, he went hard. So I think in this particular case, you know, obviously, they were roughed up because Chuck had done something with them.
Trisha LaFache:Right.
Kevin J. Hynes:And whether or not he splooged in them, or he cut them up for his own enjoyment, I don't know. But obviously, she didn't cut them up. So I think he was trying to shake her up trying to get her to be, not sympathetic.
Trisha LaFache:If you're trying to make the victim look like a bad person, you can't do it by being a bad person yourself as the defense attorney. You get no mileage with the jury by the jury not liking you. If the jury doesn't like the victim, great. But if the jury hates you, you're done for. You're just done for and, and I know what he's trying to do. And I know why she's confused. The jury must have been lost. And this must have been great for you.
Kevin J. Hynes:Certainly the press loved it. Right. The Press loved every second of it. And I think again, Morosco played to the press, just like Chuck played to the press. And I think also what was going on was that he thought if I could confuse her, if I can get her angry, if I can get her off balance, that she will explode on the stand. And then I could show her to be the bed person that she is. I mean, that is what his client told him. I'm not saying his his theory was correct, but I do understand the theory. The theory is no matter how bad they don't like me, if I can get her to explode, if I can get Marla Maples to show her true colors, the jury won't like her and therefore they will decide not to side with her in the case. It you know, at that point, it didn't work because she didn't explode, right?
Trisha LaFache:I mean, what's more arring is seeing two boots with huge slices down the center of both of them. And then as you said, it gets worse. The next thing we see is Kevin's got a big bag of evidence.
Kevin J. Hynes:Yep.
Trisha LaFache:And Morosco wants the panties.
Kevin J. Hynes:Yes, he would like the panties taken out of the bag of evidence.
Trisha LaFache:So what do you do?
Kevin J. Hynes:Well, look, there is a clip of me going into the bag of evidence and taking out certain pieces of underwear.
Trisha LaFache:Underwear!
Kevin J. Hynes:That Morosco had asked for and yes, I did not use gloves. I understand that everyone on our production team thinks it's hilarious that I didn't gloves. It was 1994. We didn't worry about gloves at that point. So yes, with my bare hands, I am touching Marla Maples underwear.
Trisha LaFache:It's just funny the way he asks for it. And you kind of like oh, yeah...
Kevin J. Hynes:Yes, yes. I was excited to touch it.
Trisha LaFache:No, that's not what I'm implying. I'm not implying that it's to let you do. It's business like is could
Kevin J. Hynes:If you told me in fucking law school that I'd be. be sitting at a prosecution table touching underwear belonging to Marla Maples Trump...
Trisha LaFache:So he takes it. Morosco puts it down in front of her and then he asks her to stand up and hold it in front of her.
Kevin J. Hynes:Yeah, this is where you crossed the line in my view.
Trisha LaFache:And then Marla Maples, her reaction....
B. Anthony Morosco:Can you please stand up hold your underwear up to the jury?
Trisha LaFache:First, she says,"No." And then she's just horrified. Her nonverbal responses turn into a three act play, in my view. Your co-counsel objects. Morosco is talking over Andrias and Andrias talking over Morosco than they asked her to get gloves and then she's just hemming and hawing. And I mean, you would think she's never been through anything in her life because she's just...
Kevin J. Hynes:Yeah, I mean, look..
Trisha LaFache:The Marla we saw on direct that you know, as you've described, her cool and calm is is all of a sudden out the window and she's just in a tizzy. And And finally, all he gets out of this hole and the entire thing is that they're blue, and they're a size medium, but he's like, well, you say that they're yours. You said,"They're yours, don't ya? Was there anything specific about him the brand or the demarcations?" I don't know what he's trying to do.
Kevin J. Hynes:No, I tell you exactly. He's always playing to the press. Right? Because I can tell you in these moments when this was happening, all I heard behind me was the press buzzing right. It was going to be a headline in the newspaper the next day. It was going to be some stupid headline that The Posts or The Daily News made up you know, "fuzzy navel or Georgia peach," or whatever. He was playing to the press. Why? Because his client wanted them to number one. Number two, it was his big moment in the sun, right? Think about it. Marla Maples Trump on the stand and I'm cross examining her? Look, the guy the guy took his shots, right. Andrias let it go too far. It pissed me off a lot, right? I mean, the fact of the matter is, she's the victim of the crime. The fact that he's making her stand up from the witness stand and hold her panties in the air. It had nothing to do with the case.
Trisha LaFache:It had nothing to do with the case.
Kevin J. Hynes:Well, I mean, this is this is where I thought he crossed the line.
Trisha LaFache:Going back to the nude photos.
Kevin J. Hynes:Yes.
Trisha LaFache:There is a moment where Morosco does ask, as you said, Marla about the the nude photos.
B. Anthony Morosco:Were there nude photographs taken by your married lover?
Marla Maples Recording:No sir. He wasn't married at that time, sir. I'm sorry. And also, at that time, no, that's not what I noticed was missing. There was a whole. It was my family shots when I was a baby. of my mother's, that were taken.
Trisha LaFache:One of my favorite moments of Marla's testimony because her face after he says married lover is just it's so priceless.
Kevin J. Hynes:My favorite part is when she said that there were pictures that my husband had taken of me when I was unclothed.
Trisha LaFache:Yes! That my husband had taken. It's just so, it's it's really epic.
Kevin J. Hynes:Look the bottom line is those naked pictures never showed up. Right. So again, like, again, newspapers going crazy, nudies and blah blah. It doesn't matter that shit never showed up. So..
Trisha LaFache:I still maintain he was a very bad lawyer, because this is a much to do about nothing. And you know where there's no there there.
Kevin J. Hynes:Again, he's trying, he's playing to the salaciousness of the case. You have to remember Chuck is in charge of the Defense. Chuck is telling him what to do. There's no doubt in my mind because Morosco was a good lawyer. He was a very experienced lawyer. He was being paid by a client who was telling him to do things that he probably shouldn't have done, but like should he have done it? Probably not. But he did. The other thing is this. Trying to get Marla off her game was something very important him on Friday, she had testified for a number of hours and did a stellar job. And what he decided to do was try to shake her up and he tried a number of different ways, right? I think he crossed the line in a bunch of ways. But she did a great job. She got off the stand. And I felt very good.
Trisha LaFache:She was shaken, not stirred on cross.
Kevin J. Hynes:She was shaken. But I mean, look, they didn't they didn't get her to say anything that was that was problematic.
Trisha LaFache:No, it wasn't irreparable. Okay, we're on to Kevin's favorite topic. Shoe value.
Kevin J. Hynes:Yes. So one of the things we had to do, as we discussed, is prove that the value of the shoes, the replacement value of the shoes was over $1,000. And that was important because if we were unable to prove that, then it would be only a misdemeanor and not a felony.
Trisha LaFache:Right. Most of these shoes were not in the condition that one could take them to a fancy consignment store and sell them for high value in order for them to reach an aggregate of $1,000, which would make it possible for the prosecution to reach that felony quantity. And so for me, being a fan of vintage shoes, this whole replacement value thing was a big deal and it was a big deal for me before I saw the condition of the shoes because I happen to know there are shoes, Charles Jourdan shoes, Marla's brand right now currently $350,$200.
Kevin J. Hynes:So somebody wears some shoes, they wear them for a while and then they sell them to somebody else?
Trisha LaFache:Yes, sir.
Kevin J. Hynes:You put your dirty feet in the shoes that somebody else had did dirty feet in?
Trisha LaFache:Your clean or dirty feet hun. One time. I walked into a vintage store with my father and my father said to me, wait, are these clothes old? And I said, Yeah. And he said, I'll give you $100 to walk out of the store right now. And I said, Sure. And we did. So when I first started looking at the fact that your office argued that there was no market for these shoes, I was mind fucked. I have a friend who worked for Calvin Klein, Donna Karan, different people. And I said, they're arguing that there's no value for old shoes. And I was like, what a terrible argument. Why would they argue this? Now I kind of understand there really isn't a market for shoes that are in the condition that the shoes were in. Therefore, what the jury should consider would be the market value of the replacement for new shoes.
Kevin J. Hynes:So in order to do that, we, the prosecution, called a shoe expert.
Trisha LaFache:So the prosecution brought in a shoe expert, Richard Jacobson, who was the head of the Foot Fashion Association, he testifies that the collection is now basically worthless, and that there is no normal market for this kind of distressed merchandise.
Kevin J. Hynes:We found this guy because he was the president of this trade association. And you know, we had him in obviously, before the trial, and he told us that given the the the wear and tear and stains in and around those shoes, that there would be no market value. So therefore, he would then analyze the shoes themselves and decide, okay, if they had to be replaced, how much it would cost, Marla, to replace those shoes. And that was over $1,000.
Trisha LaFache:I mean, would be well over $1,000 to replace over 30 pairs of brand new Charles Jourdan shoes.
Kevin J. Hynes:Yeah, I mean, we didn't think that this was gonna be an issue. I mean, he was a very, very, very good witness when it comes to this because he had that type of expertise.
Trisha LaFache:But the funny thing about Jacobson's testimony is that from the stand, he admitted that like our Chuck, he also had a thing about shoes, and he stated, quote, "I have a thing about shoes. I catch myself looking at shoes all the time." He said to Morosco, "I even find myself looking at your shoes." And Morosco said without missing a step, "Well, after the trial, I'll introduce you to the defendant. Could your association use a publicist who knows a lot about shoes?" Then the judge got into the action."What about my shoe? What would be the resale value on this?" Holding his leg in the air from the bench?
Kevin J. Hynes:Yeah, look, when I told you this was a three ring circus. This was a fucking three ring circus, right? I'm sitting there trying to be professional. And these gentlemen have decided to turn it into some kind of comic relief. And look, I was sitting there with my black wingtip shoes that I wore every day, same pair of shoes every day. And wondering to myself, what has my career turned to? The jury was laughing. The press is laughing, Morosco and Andrias, Jones.
Trisha LaFache:They got a big kick out of it.
Kevin J. Hynes:Everybody got a big kick out of it. I was sitting there watching my career go down the tubes. But a Jacobson finished this testimony by telling the jury that the replacement value for these shoes was far over $1,000. So we had proven that aspect of our case, in my view.
Trisha LaFache:Now, the defense, on the other hand, said no, no, there is a market for these shoes, and you could sell them even in the condition they are however, it would be less than $1,000. And so as you do in a trial, they each put on, experts.
Kevin J. Hynes:Right.
Trisha LaFache:The battle of the experts. And when the defense got up, when it was their turn to call their witness, he called his illegitimate market gal, tag sale entrepreneur and a used shoe expert, Gloria De Prado. She came in to testify for the defense. So tell me about Gloria.
Kevin J. Hynes:I mean, I don't know where he found her. But she came in and said that she was an expert in flea markets. I don't know what the heck that means. But that's what she said she was and Andrias let her testify. And you got to remember like we're in this huge giant courtroom, press, people watching this shit. And here comes Gloria De Prado, right? Like a middle aged woman with big giant glasses, kind of frumpy dressed. And she gets up on the stand and she pulls out Trisha, this gigantic magnifying glass. Like this is not Sherlock Holmes shit. Like we're talking about literally like a foot in diameter.
Trisha LaFache:No, it's huge. I've seen the photograph.
Kevin J. Hynes:And we roll like, you know, they roll the shoes up to her and one by one, she takes the shoes out. She puts it onto her magnifying glass and she goes, 25 cents, throws it on the side, 50 cents,$1. And she added up the 60 shoes.
Trisha LaFache:Yeah.
Kevin J. Hynes:And said at the end of the day that it was the whole thing was worth maybe about you know, $120. But again, it's an important aspect of the trial because if they can prove that there is a resale value, and it's under $1,000. Now, we haven't proven that aspect of the case.
Trisha LaFache:So by Bottom line is, as far as the value goes, if the jury believes that Marla didn't give him permission to take the shoes, then they have to go with the DA's theory on value. Because Chuck, he shouldn't be receiving the benefit of the diminished value in the shoes. Bottom line, because if he didn't desecrate them, the value of the shoes on a whole is over 1000.
Kevin J. Hynes:Jacobson was the president of the Trade Association.
Trisha LaFache:Foot Fashion Association.
Kevin J. Hynes:Whatever it was called, he was in charge of it. And so he was a great witness that we found, and we prepped and we put on the stand. Talk about a 180. De Prado comes rolling in with this magnifying glass and she's like, I'm an expert in flea markets.
Trisha LaFache:Maybe she is but I still think my argument is better. He shouldn't get the benefit. He he lowered the value himself. So why should we give him the benefit? He's just he's the one who damaged the property. He lowered it.
Kevin J. Hynes:Yeah, of course. I mean, on the on the legal side, you're correct. But that's why, we were in a fucking circus. It wasn't it was in the courtroom anymore. It turned into a three ring circus. And so, you know, look, I buckled up, took the ride. Their witnesses were very strange. De Prado wasn't the strangest.
Trisha LaFache:We've come to the moment in time to discuss the testimony of none other than Tom Fitzsimmons.
Kevin J. Hynes:Yeah, so after the after the prosecution had called of its witnesses, Marla testified. the cops testified, Pezzo and Calamari testified. You know shoe expert, Jacobson. We rested our case. The defense called De Prado, as we just talked about, and their second witness was Tom Fitzsimmons which we've heard a little bit about before.
Trisha LaFache:Former boyfriend of Marla Maples, ex-cop, actor, maybe fiance, used to be the beard of Donald and Marla, team Chuck.
Kevin J. Hynes:Right. And what he was going to testify to was that Marla and Chuck had this relationship where Marla would order him around, and go to my apartment and get this stuff for me, go in my apartment and do this, you have permission to go in my apartment.
Trisha LaFache:Pick this up, drop this off.
Kevin J. Hynes:And he testified to all this stuff. And he also testified to the fact that he was present when Marla asked Chuck to go get shoes and go get you know clothes and go get stuff out of my apartment and give it to the Salvation Army and like dispose of it. And so this was all stuff that was really, really, really vital to the defense case. And if the jury believed him, then certainly Chuck would have been acquitted.
Trisha LaFache:So you got to shred him?
Kevin J. Hynes:I got to go after him. Right? And how do you do that? How do you prove somebody is not telling the truth on the stand.
Trisha LaFache:Attack their credibility.
Kevin J. Hynes:Exactly. And so how do you do that you find out as much as you can about him. So we did a deep dive is what I like to call it and we grabbed, we grabbed his police record because he used to be a police officer. We grabbed his personnel file and we found that, you know, I don't remember if he was fired or if he resigned from the police. But he had some problems, right? Calling in sick too much or whatever. We knew rumors through Marla and other people who were involved in the case that he may, you know, he may be somebody who's kind of a Barfly, somebody who drank a lot during the day. We also knew that like he wanted to be a screenwriter and the actor and a talent guy. I mean, he just, you know, he's one of these guys who had a lot of dreams in his head.
Trisha LaFache:But that didn't make him a liar. I mean, being a beard and maybe being a drunk made him a liar. But, you know, I had some issues.
Kevin J. Hynes:I had to go after him, right. So what I did was I put an investigator on him, and they we followedhim around for a couple days. And what we found was...
Trisha LaFache:Wow....sneaky!
Kevin J. Hynes:I don't know if it's sneaky. In my view, he was going to perjure himself how do I attack that person is by going after his credibility. We find out that he goes from bar to bar to bar, as you know, breakfast lunch and dinner in bars.
Trisha LaFache:But that's good news right?
Kevin J. Hynes:It's good news for me. I'm like, Okay, this is the guy this is this is who I'm dealing with, when he gets up in the standard says all these things, which he does on direct, and he basically blows a huge hole in Marla's testimony, and basically is saying that Marla perjured herself. Now it's time for me to like, you know, show the fangs and go out to get them and that's, that's what I tried to do.
Trisha LaFache:So you're basically going to say that you're a drunk and you're a liar, so nobody should believe you.
Kevin J. Hynes:I mean, that was my plan. It didn't really work out that way. It went a little sideways as we say.
Trisha LaFache:Ladies and gentlemen, for the first time ever on Heeled, Kevin J. Hynes is going to read with me excerpts from the New York Daily News and he is going to play none other than Kevin J. Hynes.
Kevin J. Hynes:Great. Mr. Fitzsimmons, let me ask you this. You spend a lot of time in a bar called Mumbles don't yet.
Trisha LaFache:Yes.
Kevin J. Hynes:As a matter of fact, you spend all day long in Mumbles right?
Trisha LaFache:Yes.
Kevin J. Hynes:And you spend the whole day there drinking right? I mean, you drink a lot Mr. Fitzsimmons. True?
Trisha LaFache:Not as much as you do. And incredulous Hynes, who was the son of Brooklyn district attorney Charles Hynes, asked Fitzsimmons...
Kevin J. Hynes:Not as much as I drink. havewe drank together, sir?
Trisha LaFache:No, but you have a reputation. Kevin J. HYnes. What just happened?
Kevin J. Hynes:Look, this is obviously where I made a mistake on my cross examination of Mr. Fitzsimmons. Right? they teach you in law school, never ask a question on cross examination that you don't know the answer to, and I obviously did not know the answer. Look, I will say this...
Trisha LaFache:You didn't know the answer if you drank together?
Kevin J. Hynes:I gotta tell you back in the day, I drank with a lot of people, right? But here's, here's the truth. I did a very poor job of cross examining Mr. Fitzsimmons, at that point.
Trisha LaFache:When he said to you, "not as much as you do."
Kevin J. Hynes:Yes.
Trisha LaFache:What was the first thing that went through your mind?
Kevin J. Hynes:First thing was like, wow, that's an impressive answer. Stevie Scirocco was there right? Stevie Scirocco was it was my mentor in the DA's office and he was very, very, very well liked and well respected. He was in the courtroom that day. And the way he described it was as soon as Fitzsimmons said that to you, Kevin, you look like you were in a standing eight count. I felt like I got hit with like a left hook. I was, you know, stumbling around the courtroom. All of a sudden, everything goes into slow motion, right. And like, I'm looking up at the bench and I see judge Andrias getting angry and I turn over to Morosco and he's got this shit eating grin on his face. And then I'm looking at the jurors, they're staring at me and behind me, I hear the press kind of clickety clack and everybody's writing shit. And I'm like, Oh, my God. Oh, my God, what have I done? This is gonna be the front page in New York Post tomorrow."Drunk DA!" And all I'm thinking about is... I'm done. And then Andrias loses his shit, throws the jury out, throws Fitzsimmons off the stand, and comes off the bench and stands in the middle of the courtroom and starts making threats. He's threatening to declare a mistrial.
Trisha LaFache:Next time on the season finale of Heeled... the shoe bandit takes the stand.
Chuck Jones Recording:I've had this problem for a long time. I couldn't deal with it after a while.
Kevin J. Hynes:Finally, I'm going to be able to actually speak to Chuck Jones in a courtroom in front of a jury and ask him the questions that I want to ask him. And then a bomb dropped. These notes basically were exactly what Chuck needed to show that he had permission and authority to be inside her place, to take her stuff and to leave with it.
Trisha LaFache:Which is the heart of your case.
Kevin J. Hynes:It's the only part of our case. These notes were crafted in such a way that if believed, the whole case goes down the toilet.
Court Clerk:Has the jury agreed upon a verdict? Will the defendant please rise? I'll say you with the count one, charging the defendant Charles Jones with the crime of burglary in the second degree, guilty or not guilty?
Trisha LaFache:Heeled is a Justkill Production produced by Tandace Khorrami, Luke Groneman and Tyler Patrick Jones. It's written by Kevin J. Hynes and myself, Trisha LaFache. The Heeled theme music was written by Chad Crouch. Additional shout out to Mike Shafranak, our editing wizard, our sound engineer Kyle Raps and to Max Alcabez, owner of Pink Cloud Studios in Los Angeles, where we record these shoes scapades. Follow us on our Instagram at heeled.podcast or check us out on our website heeledpodcast.com Tune in next week for another exciting episode of Heeled.