In the final episode, Chuck Jones takes the stand in his own defense and is forced to admit some very strange dealings with Marla Maples' shoes...
In the final episode, Chuck Jones takes the stand in his own defense and is forced to admit some very strange dealings with Marla Maples' shoes...
Previously on Heeled. The first witness called in the people of the state of New York versus Charles Jones is Marla Maples Trump.
Marla Maples Recording:It was a a very emotional time. I just kept asking, why did you do this? Why did you do this?
Kevin J. Hynes:I think Morosco was trying to shake her up. Trying to get her to be not sympathetic. She's the victim of the crime. He's making her hold her panties in the air.
B. Anthony Morosco:Will you stand up and hold your underwear to the jury?
Kevin J. Hynes:So one of the things we had to do is prove that the replacement value of the shoes was over $1,000. And that was important because if we were unable to prove that, it would be only a misdemeanor, not a felony.
Trisha LaFache:The Battle of the experts. The prosecution brought in Richard Jacobson, who was the head of the Foot Fashion Association. He testifies that the collection is now basically worthless, and that there is no normal market for this kind of distressed merchandise. The defense called, tag sale entrepreneur and used shoe expert Gloria De Prado.
Kevin J. Hynes:They roll the shoes up to her and one by one, she takes the shoes out. She puts it onto her magnifying glass and she goes 25 cents, throws it on the side. 50 cents.$1.
Trisha LaFache:We've come to the testimony of none other than Tom Fitzsimmons.
Kevin J. Hynes:If the jury believed him, then certainl Chuck would have been acquitted
Trisha LaFache:So you got to shred them?
Kevin J. Hynes:I got to go after him. Right?
Trisha LaFache:So you're basically going to say that you're a drunk and you're a liar, so nobody should believe you.
Kevin J. Hynes:I mean, that was my plan. It went a little sideways. Andrias loses his shit, throws the jury out, throws Fitzsimmons off the stand and comes off the bench and stands in the well of the courtroom. He's threatening to declare a mistrial.
Trisha LaFache:I'm your host, Trishia LaFache, and this is
Heeled:The Curious Case of Marla Trump's Shoes. So just to recap...
Kevin J. Hynes:Yep.
Trisha LaFache:You found semen in the shoes.
Kevin J. Hynes:Uh huh.
Trisha LaFache:You won your pre-trial hearing. This meant that all of the evidence recovered from Chuck's office would be admissible at trial. You offered him an ACD yet again...
Kevin J. Hynes:Trying to get rid of a case. Yes.
Trisha LaFache:He refused. Yet again.
Kevin J. Hynes:Yes, he did.
Trisha LaFache:The trial began. Marla testified. Giannetta testified. Higgins testified. Lynch, Calamari and Pezzo testified. You had your shoe guy testify. The prosecution rested.
Kevin J. Hynes:Yes.
Trisha LaFache:Then the defense started its case. GLORIA magnifying glass Deprado testify.
Kevin J. Hynes:Yeah she did.
Trisha LaFache:The defense called Tom Fitzsimmons. You two got into it over who was a bigger alcoholic and the judge threatened to call a mistrial. The judge threatening to call a mistrial is a pretty big deal.
Kevin J. Hynes:Yeah.
Trisha LaFache:Usually a mistrial is declared in a situation where the trial has been rendered invalid because of an error in the proceedings, like here, or the trial has been deemed inconclusive after the jury has deliberated, meaning they've been in the jury room for some time, and they cannot reach a unanimous verdict in jurisdictions that require a unanimous verdict, which is commonly referred to as a hung jury, which is not the situation we have here. But, it is supposed to be reserved for errors that would cause prejudice. And that can't be rectified with instruction to the jury. And that, to me, is just not the case here. Especially because this was at this point in almost three week case, about shoes. And it's reported by the Daily News that at this point, February, 10 1994, that it has cost taxpayers over $62,000 in salaries alone for the judge, other court personnel, the prosecutors, police officers, and the jurors since its start at the end of January.
Kevin J. Hynes:Yeah, I mean, it was a fucking mess at this point, right. I mean, we were getting a lot of press about how much this was costing, and you know, why are they prosecuting this case? And this this should have been a went away a long time ago. It's funny, because this is the same press that actually, you know, made the thing go and go and go and go and loved every every headline of it. Yeah, I mean, it was, it was ridiculous. But at this point, though, the worst thing that could have happened was if the judge had granted him a
Trisha LaFache:The cost of a trial is something that judges straw. absolutely take into account when determining whether a mistrial is justified. I have been in court when defense attorneys have said, "Your Honor, you know, I'd like to, to move for a mistrial," and judges have said, "I'm sorry, this has been a six week trial. I will instruct the jury to disregard the comments but I am not going to declare a mistrial." You know, because they are aware of taxpayers money. Unlike supreme court justices, most judges do not have lifelong appointments. They are up for election and they do take into consideration how much cases cost. so my opinion is, yes. Is this wild? Is this amazing? You two going at it like this from the bench calling each other drunks. Yes, it is fantastic drama, but a miss trial here would have been pretty excessive. How do you feel?
Kevin J. Hynes:Andrias responded in the moment just like I respond in the moment and probably the way Fitzsimmons responded in the moment, right? I was asking Fitzsimmons, if he you know, spends his days drinking and you know, basically doing nothing other than going from bar to bar to bar. He came at me and said that, "I don't drink as much as you." I had the stupid question to ask, you know, "you've drank with me." And he said, "No, but you have quite a reputation." I think, no one expected that to happen. Right? And I look, I have a piece of this, Fitzsimons as a piece of this, and I think that Andrias has a piece, right? He could have responded in a number of different ways, Andrias. He chose to be very upset that he had basically lost control of his courtroom. And you know, what he did was he told the jury to go out and then the jury left and he was very angry. I remember him being like beet red. He came down off the off the bench and he stood in the well of the courtroom. And he was very angry. And he said that he was considering...
Trisha LaFache:Why did he come off the bench? That's another fun piece.
Kevin J. Hynes:Yeah, I mean, I think he just want you, look the presses there. It's a very dramatic moment. Right.
Trisha LaFache:Yeah.
Kevin J. Hynes:And so he, you know, he was one who understood the drama, but I think he was legitimately pissed that that had happened. And I think he was looking to protect me too. I think that, you know, he saw it as an attack on me. He thought that Morosco would put them up to it.
Trisha LaFache:Okay.
Kevin J. Hynes:And so he was yelling at Morosco at that point, Morosco and Andrias has was...you know...
Trisha LaFache:Beef.
Kevin J. Hynes:I had some beef. I had some beef with Morosco. I mean, Andrias decided in the moment to jump down off the bench and basically give Morosco a talking too and give Fitzsimmons a talking too and I, I sat down...
Trisha LaFache:I'm no fan of Morosco, but this is Morosco's fault? You went after him. You're doing your job.
Kevin J. Hynes:I think that Andrias thought the Morosco was involved in a setup with Chuck and with Fitzsimmons, to try to embarrass me in front of the jury. I think that that's probably what Andrias saw. Whether or not that's true, I mean, who knows? I did not want to miss trial. Right? I mean, that that was the yes mean what my thought was when he did that. My first thought was like, This is confusing, because if you're looking to help me or looking to protect me, the worst thing that can happen to me at this point is a miss trial. Jury went home. You know, I went home. You know, it's not something that I went and told my bosses about.
Trisha LaFache:Right. Okay, so what happened the next day?
Kevin J. Hynes:There was some press in the case, right? I mean, it was it wasn't drunk DA, thank God. There were talks about the explosive nature of the cross examination of Tom Fitzsimmons. And the fact that Tom Fitzsimmons had alleged that he and I were both on the same plane when it came to drinking. I wasn't happy about it. I mean, look, this, this case had gone on for way too long, right. And I mean, every turn, there was a lot of like, just bad things happening. I wanted to get out of it at this point, but I was in it. We're gonna finish it. We're going to do that. And then I got a call from my father.
Trisha LaFache:Okay. The Brooklyn DA.
Kevin J. Hynes:Right. The elected Brooklyn DA had got elected in the latein 1989.
Trisha LaFache:The great Charles Joe Hynes.
Kevin J. Hynes:Yes. And we had a quick discussion in which his secretary called and I picked up the phone. And many, many times I would have this interaction, which is Secretary Catherine would say, "hold for your father. " And I held for my father, and he got on the phone. And he was like, "just read the papers, couldn't have been prouder," and hung up the phone."Couldn't be proud," or something like that. My dad's a wiseass. I know who's gonna be a wise as I knew that, something like that was coming.
Trisha LaFache:Was the,"couldn't be prouder," dripping with sarcasm, or did he mean he couldn't be prouder?
Kevin J. Hynes:No, it was sarcastic. I mean, look, I mean, you know, my father was in the paper almost every day when he was Brooklyn DA.
Trisha LaFache:Right.
Kevin J. Hynes:He was, you know, a prominent official. This is the first time that I'm ever in the newspapers really, it's like about whether or not I drink as much as um, you know, crazy witness.
Trisha LaFache:So when you went back into court, God bless him. Your dad, um, when you went back into the court, so did the judge just tell the jury to strike that portion of the testimony and that they were instructed to disregard it? Did he strike all of Fitzsimmons's testimony? What happened?
Kevin J. Hynes:Yeah, we went in the court. The judge gave, you know what's called a curative instruction. He explained to the jury, "look, what happened yesterday, at the end of the day, was not something that should have should have happened." He asked them to disregard that part of it. He said that the prosecutors credibility is not an issue here. He said some nice things about me as I remember it, and then in a very strange situation in a very strange case, in a very strange time in my life, Tom Fitzsimmons in front of the jury asked the judge if he could address me, the judge said,"yes." And Fitzsimmons apologized for for saying what he said the day before.
Trisha LaFache:Oh, that's nice.
Kevin J. Hynes:Sure, we all getting along at that point.
Trisha LaFache:Tom Fitzsimmons apologizes to you from the stand because he still on cross examination!
Kevin J. Hynes:Yeah, I mean, we didn't have much to do after that.
Trisha LaFache:So you just say no further questions your honor?!
Kevin J. Hynes:I went after him on his testimony that Marla had always asked Chuck to do you know certain things for him. That Marla had always asked Chuck to go into the apartment to get stuff for her. And, you know, I was just able to show that, you know, he didn't really have time or place in mind. And it was the general statement. So I broke those statements down a little bit just to show the jury that he was, you know, I think fabricating most of it.
Trisha LaFache:No further questions, Your Honor. Fitzsimmons gets off the stand. And now it's time for Chuck to testify. And how do you think he's feeling after all of this?
Kevin J. Hynes:After Marla had testified in the trial, and I thought it was treated very poorly by Morosco. We were in a knife fight. Right. And so one of the other things I used to do during the trial was I would make certain comments to Chuck, when we weren't in session. And, you know, it was my hope that I could get him to testify, right? Because it was my view that if he did testify, I'd be able to ask him certain questions that would show that this fabricated story about him having the ability to go in Marla's apartment, having the permission to do that having the permission to take her stuff was all bullshit, right? So my view of that was, you know, every time I got a chance to say something to him, like Chucky can testify? Chuck, you want to get up there, right? Like I really want you to go and testify. And you know, Morosco would say stop talking my client, we you know, we, you know, have added a lot bit.
Trisha LaFache:I think a lot of listeners don't realize most We knew that he wanted to tell his story. I just wanted to make defendants do not testify on their own behalf at trial. And most defense attorneys do everything they can to get their clients not testify because you know, all defendendants want to get up there and, "tell my si e of the story," and it's like"no," get your ass in the chai. But you were trying to kind f egg him on to get him up ther. But come on. Chuck Jones sure that he was gonna tell the story. asn't gonna fucking testify. He' been running his mouth since e was in jail. Calling reporter since the day he got ar Right.
Kevin J. Hynes:And yes, I think that most defendants don't testify in criminal trials. This is not like any other criminal trial I was ever involved in. So I was not shocked when Andrias asked Morosco, "Do you have any further witnesses after Fitzsimmons?" And he said, "yes, we call, Chuck Jones."
Trisha LaFache:The moment we've all been waiting for. The Shoe Bandit takes the stand.
B. Anthony Morosco:Can you tell us, sir, how you first met Marla Maples?
Chuck Jones Recording:I was introduced to her in 1986 at the Doral-Inn, a hotel by Tom Fitzsimmons, who was living with her at the time. They we're engaged.
B. Anthony Morosco:How she introduced to you?
Chuck Jones Recording:As an actress, model.
B. Anthony Morosco:And would you tell us how and when you struck up an acquaintanceship and a relationship with her?
Chuck Jones Recording:What happened was Tom, he had several female friends from time to time and Marla was an actress who usually asked me to try to help them out.
Trisha LaFache:Okay, so in that clip, we have Chuck talking about how Fitzsimmons used to bring all the ladies over to him to see if Chuck could get something poppin off in their career.
Kevin J. Hynes:It was interesting, because it's the first time we're really actually getting into the mind of Chuck Jones. And in his mind, Fitzsimmons....
Trisha LaFache:I've been in the mind of Chuck Jones for the past six weeks. I don't know.
Kevin J. Hynes:But Fitzsimmons is the guy who, you know, he knows the ladies and he's out there talking to models and actresses. Yeah, he's bringing them over to Chuck because Chuck is the guy who can make shit happen. I mean, look, all of this is bullshit, right? Chuck couldn't get anything happening. And Fitzsimmons couldn't get a big part on a fucking TV show. So whatever, they were running some kind of like situation. I don't think Chuck was ever into the women for, you know, for, you know, romantic or sexual...
Trisha LaFache:Anything other than their shoes?
Kevin J. Hynes:Who knows. But he told this story about how he was a power player within the industry. And Fitzsimmons would bring women to him to see if he could help them. And that's how Marla and Chuck met.
Trisha LaFache:Here's Moroscoo and he is asking Chuck, whether he's having violent fantasies when he took this boot.
B. Anthony Morosco:We're having a violent fantasies about anyone?
Chuck Jones Recording:No.
B. Anthony Morosco:Did there come a time wher you recognized that you have a unusual affinity for shoes?
Chuck Jones Recording:Actually it had been building up because I've had this problem for a long time.
B. Anthony Morosco:Could you tell us for how long?
Chuck Jones Recording:(counting to himself) 15...16..probably over 20 years.
B. Anthony Morosco:Did there come time you began to realize that it was a problem?
Chuck Jones Recording:Yes. It started affecting me mostly during my relationship with Marla Maples. And she was someone who I considered a friend and it just got to a level that I couldn't deal with it after a while and I did try to seek some help on it. I even actually spoke to her, tried to speak to her once about it.
Trisha LaFache:You're thinking,"great. This is amazing. He's making our case for us."
Kevin J. Hynes:Yeah! I was a kid in a candy store. I was like, I can't believe that this is the direct examination. He's admitting that he has a fascination with the shoes. He's admitting that it got worse during Marla. He's admitted that he's taken the boots and he's admitted that he's cut them up and done some you know, fucked up shit with them. I thought this was my...this was my my best day ever. I mean after the day before when like Fitzsimmons smack me around. I was like,"Alright, cool, like, We're good. We're good now."
Trisha LaFache:It's like, "do I even cross this guy." I'm writing my closing statements, like Ladies and gentlemen, it doesn't have to be violent. He just had to take them. Mr. Morosco did a great job of explaining to us that Mr. Jones doesn't understand his fascination with shoes. Marla Maples shoes in particular, and you could feel badly about that. You could have sympathy for him about it. That's okay. We do too. But guess what? It has nothing to do with this case.
Kevin J. Hynes:Trisha. Look, I know the kids nowadays do this thing called the floss when they get excited. I don't know if you've seen this dance. But like that's if I knew what the floss was at the time, I would have been doing that in the courtroom, because like everything I need him to say he's saying.
Trisha LaFache:Right!
Kevin J. Hynes:And I'm like this could not get any better. And then a bomb dropped.
Trisha LaFache:Okay.
Kevin J. Hynes:Morosco walks by my desk and he drops a piece of paper and it was like a Xerox copy of like three post it notes. And then he hands the notes to Chuck. And I'm trying to read the notes. And like, I got a little bit of a dyslexia thing going, I'm like trying to read it. As I start to hear Chuck say, "these are notes given to me by Marla which show that she wanted me to go into her apartment to get her shoes or underwear," like all sorts of stuff. Each one of those notes were dated differently and had instructions from Marla to Chuck, "please go into my apartment and get this. Please go into my apartment and get that. Please do this with that stuff." You know, give it to charity, give it to the Salvation Army. These notes basically were exactly what Chuck needed to show that he had permission and authority to be inside her place, to take her stuff and to leave with it.
Trisha LaFache:Which is the heart of your case.
Kevin J. Hynes:It's the only part of our case, it's not the heart. It's it is the case, right? These notes were crafted in such a way that if believed, the whole case goes down the toilet. I'm reading it, I can't believe this is happening. Chuck is identifying the stuff in front of the jury and saying these things in front of the jury. So I object at that point. I was able to stop the questioning, and as far as sidebar. So we get up to the sidebar and Andrias is like, "I can't believe that all of a sudden, you're trying to admit these notes that we heard nothing about from the beginning." Morosco said,"Judge, what do you want me to do? My client was preparing last night for testimony and in his paperwork, he found the notes. Brought them into court this morning, showed them to me. And now I'm trying to lay a proper foundation. So the jury can know that Marla had asked him to do these things." And he said,"Okay, Hynes, what do you think?" And I'm like, I don't know what to think. Obviously, I'm surprised that this is happening now.
Trisha LaFache:Yeah.
Kevin J. Hynes:I also think there's an authenticity problem, because I don't know if these are actually written by Marla. And I'm going to need some time to determine that. Andrias said,"how much time you looking for?" And I said, I don't know, Judge, a couple days. And he said, "No, I'll give you one day. You can have one day, 24 hours, to go and try to figure out what's going on with these notes." Prosecution was on the ropes at this point, because if these notes are true, I need to come into court in 24 hours and dismiss the case. Which you know, talk about front page headline shit, right, you know, DA dismisses shoe case. I mean, I'm I'm done. My career is over. And nothing I did wrong. Right. I so anyway, look, the press is all over me. Well, you know what, what's going on? What are those notes? What are you gonna do when I got to ignore them? Morosco is talking to the press. He's telling them what it's all about. I get back to my office. And we call Marla. Right.
Trisha LaFache:Okay.
Kevin J. Hynes:We told her what happened. And she said I don't remember ever writing notes to chuck asking him to do these things because that sounds crazy. I would never do that. So we faxed, there was fax machines back in the day, I think we still got fax machines, right? So we fax the notes over to Marla and Marla gets them, she reads them and she said, "I don't remember ever writing these notes. I'm pretty sure I didn't."
Trisha LaFache:"Pretty sure," is not inspiring.
Kevin J. Hynes:I would have liked her to say, "this is not mine. And these are not my handwriting." Right? She didn't say, "this does look like my handwriting but I'm pretty sure I didn't, I didn't write these notes."
Trisha LaFache:Well, at least she didn't say, "Oh, fuck I did write those that one time. It was just that one time. I swear Kevin."
Kevin J. Hynes:Yeah, I wouldn't have I would have just left the state I think if that happened. So what I did was I talked to my boss. My boss said, "Look, if you're gonna question the authenticity of handwriting, there's one guy who we rely on here and his name is Gus Lesniak."
Trisha LaFache:Okay, so would you do?
Kevin J. Hynes:I called Gus Lesniak. What I was told about Gus Lesniak was he was the premier handwriting expert in the country. The feds used him, we used them in the state. I was given his number. I looked at the number. Tt obviously wasn't a 212 number. It's a 718 number. He is obviously not New York. Turns out he's in some bumfuck town in Pennsylvania. So I called him up and I explained to him the problem and he said,"Sure, come on out, come on out to the farm and we can take a look," and I'm like, okay, and I'm trying to think to myself, who would call their lab a farm but whatever. Higgins and Giannetta are with me They're excited about this. And they say, "you know, what do you need?" And I said I need you guys to come pick me up in the morning to take me here and I gave him an address and again, there is no Google Maps at the time right there is no you know that you can't just put it in your phone and see how far away it is. They you know, made some telephone calls and they're like, you know, Kevin, this is like four and a half hours away.
Trisha LaFache:Oh my god.
Kevin J. Hynes:Okay, great. Well pick me up now seven or whatever,in the morning. They picked me up from my apartment in Stuyvesant town and we began our trip to the middle, literally the middle, of Pennsylvania. We get in the car and they begin to drive and and of course because the world can't get any worse, right? It's not 2020 but the world can't get any worse for me at this point, 1994, but it starts to snow. We're not talking like fluffy beautiful you know Christmas twinkly lights. No, we're talking ugly New York heavy wet snow on bald tires with Giannetta and Higgins in the front seat goofing around laughing about how my career is going down the tubes laughing about the fact that you know why we probably should have asked Marla if she ever wrote notes, huh boss? I mean, all of these ridiculous things as I'm trying to sit in the back freezing my ass off because the heat aint working and wondering if this car is going to go off the fucking road on my way to bumfuck Pennsylvania to meet some dude I never met before. Who's going to tell me basically in the room? Yes, your career is over or not? At some point, I started laughing about it too, because the whole thing was absurd. I mean, everyone's back in New York doing their stuff in the criminal justice system. And I'm gonna freakin car with these two bozos go out to bumfuck, Pennsylvania, right to meet a guy named Gus Lesniak. I mean, it was, it was a strange four and a half hour drive. Because of the snow, it ends up being a six or seven hour drive, literally stopping for gas, doing all that stuff. It's snowing in Pennsylvania, and we get there from magic hours. They call it out here, but like five, six o'clock, and we roll in, and it literally is a farm, like the dude lives on a farm. And so we roll down the road and we see this farmhouse and there's a barn connected to the farmhouse and we go up to the door, knock on the door, and there's Gus Lesniak, he comes to the door. He's like, "Hey, good to see yah." This guy is the premier handwriting expert in the world, right? He's living on a farm in Pennsylvania, when I later asked why is that? It's because if you're the best in your business in anything, you can live any where you want. And that's where he lived. So he goes go out in the barn, and I'll be out in a second. And I'm like the barn? So we walk from his front door around the side, and there's a barn there. And I'm thinking, I'm gonna walk in here and see cows like what is happening. Giannetta pulls the barn door open. And instead of a farm barn, it's a CSI lab.
Trisha LaFache:Oh, my God.
Kevin J. Hynes:It's got big giant TVs on the wall. He's got Chuck got good because he was so busy writing Chuck plus Marla in computer equipment. And again, this is before everyone had computer equipment. So we walk in there and we're like, wow, this is interesting. And then he comes out the side door, and he's like, "Hey, guys, you know, give me the known handwriting samples and give me the notes." And so those are the two things right? We had known samples, exemplars, and we also had the notes, copies of the notes, and we gave them both to Gus. And he said, All right, I'll be right back, he goes around the corner, and so it's clickety clack. And on his computer, and me,Giannetta and Higgins are kind of looking around and I'm like, Guys, don't touch anything, please. Cuz like, I don't have a budget if you guys break anything, and they're like, goofing around, haha. And after some time, Lesniak comes back, and I'm like, well, and he's like, have a seat. So we sit down and up on the, on the TV screen. All of a sudden, the the notes appear, right. So the notes are on one side and the known handwriting samples of Marla on the other. And he's like, "these are very good." I m like, very good how? He's lik, well, they're very go d forgeries. Oh. Okay, goo. Yes. So how did you know th t? And he was like, "Well, ta e a look at this." And he zoom in on individual letter, both on the known quantities nd on the on the notes. And wh t was interesting is th first thing you think is Oh, ow, these two these two things ook the same, right. But when y u zoom in on individual letter, you're able to see that for i stance, the scripted F on the known quantity is different than the scripted F in comparison on he notes. Did with Yes, I th nk you did it with a capital T. And he's like, "Look, this is how we know. You can forge no es, but when you forge someth ng, unfortunately, if you're no perfect if you're not really g od at it, you're gonna make t ese kind of mistakes." his notebook. Hahah I mean, we had stuff that Chuck wrote. I said, "is this is, can you tell me if Chuck did these forgeries?" And he said, some very interesting he goes, "you have to remember when someone is forging a document, when they're forging someone else's handwriting, they're disguising their own handwriting to make it look like someone else's."
Trisha LaFache:Right.
Kevin J. Hynes:And so that's why it's very difficult to say, you know, Chuck wrote the notes right. What I can say is that Marla did not write the notes. That's all I needed. I mean, I dropped a subpoena on him. I'm like, Look, dude, I need you tomorrow in court. Judge Andrias's courtroom part 63, 10am.
Trisha LaFache:See, I like this story even better if you said,"Get in the car Gus or come with us. We got a room for you at the Plaza."
Kevin J. Hynes:Yeah, no, we're not gonna we're not gonna kidnap our handwriting expert. But yeah, he was like, "Yes, I will be there." And the next day he showed up, and he had with him all of the equipment necessary to show the jurors what he showed us the night before. In addition, he had lookbooks right. So we prepared these books, which he was able to give to each juror in which he was able to show the comparison between the individual letters, the F, the S, the T, and then he was able to show on a big screen in the courtroom. When he zeroed in on those letters how the notes that Chuck was saying came from Marla were in fact, not written by Marla Maples. And he gave us that testimony. And he was able to, I think, show the jury that these were forgeries
Trisha LaFache:Get it Gus.
Kevin J. Hynes:So after Lesniak testified, we took him out of order the judge let us take him out of order, and then Chuck had to go back up on direct examination, and Morosco started asking him again, he stepped away from the notes and started asking him more about the fascination and the fetish or having to do with the shoe stuff.
Trisha LaFache:Yep. And we have a clip about that.
Kevin J. Hynes:Great.
B. Anthony Morosco:What is it about shoes that holds your interes?
Chuck Jones Recording:I still can't answer that question. I just don't know. It's traction, the wear around it. The imprints inside of it. I don't know what the fascination is, but it's there.
Trisha LaFache:So Chuck starts talking about his fascination with the wear and the imprint of the foot on the sole.
Kevin J. Hynes:Yeah, it was the first time I'd ever heard this right. We had done some research on foot fetishes and shoe fetishes, I think but I mean, this is the first time I've heard like, oh, okay, so I was learning too, write right? They Jury was leanring and I was learning. It was the imprint on the shoe itself of the foot. I didn't know what that meant. But I mean, that's that's kind of what he said. That was definitely...
Trisha LaFache:Educational!
Kevin J. Hynes:Yes, I yeah. Yeah.
Trisha LaFache:Well, we think that Morosco here is trying to get back to what we were talking about before, which was, it wasn't about being violent or anything, let's say sexual in nature when he was cutting up the shoes. The point of slicing the shoes was simply to get a better look at the imprint. In the article, "Jones Bares His Soul Over the Love of Shoes,"
Kevin J. Hynes:There goes another headline!
Trisha LaFache:There's another one of our last headlines, Morosco questions Jones about the many pairs of boots found in his office that had been slashed, and asked Jones if he had cut them. "Yes, I did," said Jones. Morosco, "Why?" Jones, "I was really interested in seeing the imprint of the foot inside. That was strictly the only reason." The article goes on to say that Chuck Jones's interest in shoes wasn't limited to Marla Maples, that he would go to secondhand stores and thrift shops and buy other women's shoes. And he didn't consider his penchant for pumps, a fetish, just a mental aberration, that if anyone had a fetish, it was Marla, because all of her shoes were Charles Jourdan. And that after he testified, he felt good about baring his soul.
Kevin J. Hynes:I mean, I was learning a lot during his direct examination, right? One of the things I learned was that there's this imprint situation, right? And what it made me think about is like, okay, you know, picture this, right. He's sitting in his office, in the purple carpet, mirrored walls, and he's like, he's got scissors, I guess? Or maybe like, straight edge box cutter?
Trisha LaFache:A box cutter will be better.
Kevin J. Hynes:You got to remember this shit actually happened. He actually sat there and cut the shoe. So he could look inside at the imprint of the foot...
Trisha LaFache:Says, Chuck.
Kevin J. Hynes:These are not things we've made up. This is what he testified under oath. When you think about it, it's just today, I still don't understand it. But that's what he did. The other thing he did was his parting blow of his direct examination was to take a whack at Marla, right?
Trisha LaFache:(Impersonating Chuck Jones) I don't got a fetish, she got a fetish!
Kevin J. Hynes:How absurd and what a stupid thing to do. But this guy could not help himself from the beginning. So he took a whack at Marla. And then Morosco sat down. And look, I was amped, right. I was like Finally, after all of these months, I've finally I'm going to be able to actually speak to Chuck Jones in a courtroom in front of a jury and ask him the questions that I want to ask him. I was psyched, right? Chuck Jones is on the stand and you know, I get to get up and begin to ask him questions which I'm very excited to do and look, I had not done a very good job with Tom Fitzsimmons. So, in preparing for Chuck Jones, I did something different. And in the DA's office at the time, and I'm going to date myself again, there was something called V-H-S tapes. These were large plastic black tapes that you would put in a VHS machine. And then you could watch a movie on TV if you wanted. Or if there were certain, you know, instructive videos that the DA'S offices put together, you could watch that and there was a instructive video called "The Art of Cross Examination" that was on a VHS tape. So the night before my cross examination of Chuck, I borrowed that VHS tape. I don't know what VHS stands for. And I put it in my VHS machine at home and watched it. It was a 90 minute tape. I don't remember who the prosecutor was at the time, but he did a lecture on cross examination and I took notes and I I prepared as hard as I could for the cross examination to chuck because I knew that I had missteps during the Fitzsimmons cross examination. I wanted to make sure that that did not happen again. Chuck got up to testify and I was able to start my cross examination of him and I decided to go after him for the forged notes first.
Trisha LaFache:And because God is occasionally good, we have clips from Kevin's cross examination of Chuck.
Kevin J. Hynes Recording:These notes are not the two notes inyour defense that Marla Maples made things up on the stand.
Chuck Jones Recording:I hope my whole defense doesn't depend on those two notes. No.
Kevin J. Hynes Recording:And you know why? You don't know why you confessed to that?
Chuck Jones Recording:Because I think that whatever I presented here is a fair assessment of the situation.
Trisha LaFache:Peoples 23, people's 24, people's 25 are forgeries!
Kevin J. Hynes:Yeah, yeah. I mean, that's, that's a great impression. Look, I was I was amped up, right. I mean, I'm trying to show the jury...
Trisha LaFache:"They're not forgeries." Does he have a pulse? This guy?
Kevin J. Hynes:Look, I mean, I had him I had him in a bad spot, right. I mean, he had to somehow come up with an idea why, why they weren't forgeries. But look, what I'm trying to do here was tack him down, right, trying to put into his mouth. These are the things you thought when you first saw the notes like you're excited about it, because you were going to be able to show that they were the linchpin to your defense, then I could also show that, you know, we had proven in our opinion that they were forgeries.
Trisha LaFache:And I if for those of you who can't hear what Chuck without a pulse is saying, I hope that that isn't what my defense is hanging on? Well, seems like it is because other than that, you're talking about the fact that you weren't violently ripping her shoes open, hun. Let's play another clip from Kevin's massive cross examination.
Kevin J. Hynes Recording:You must have said, here's a note that says I left the keys to parentheses, 8A, for you, at Trump Parc.
Chuck Jones Recording:That's right.
Kevin J. Hynes Recording:You said this jury could see this note that they would know Marla lied and I'm innocent...
Kevin J. Hynes:All right. And here I'm trying to show look, Chuck, what did you think when you first saw these notes if they were legitimate, like trying to show to the jury that there is no way that the night before he was about to testify? They just happen to show up? Right? It was way too much of a coincidence. So it was a sarcastic way of me trying to show the jury that there's no way that what he's saying happened happened.
Trisha LaFache:Right, because if Chuck Jones knew that these notes existed for a year and a half, I would have tried desperately to find them. And if he did find them on the eve of his testimony, he better figure out how to do a triple southtowne pure wet into a double roundoff because this is the money honey.
Kevin J. Hynes:Then the next thing we went after was this whole idea that he was somehow given the keys by the concierge.
Kevin J. Hynes Recording:You knew when you found this note that Marla had said she had never had left keys for you at the concierge.
Chuck Jones Recording:She has left keys before.
Kevin J. Hynes:This was the other part of it right? He had always said that the concierge had given him the keys. That the concierge, that Marla would give the concierge the keys and then the concierge would give him the keys. It's all bullshit. But I needed him to say that again because Marla had already said it wasn't true. So I wanted to trap him in that lie. So now I had him under oath, telling the jury that the concierge should give me the keys and we were able to prove that that in fact never happened.
Trisha LaFache:This is excellent lawyering for whatever missteps you feel like you took with Tom Fitzsimmons. You you more than made up for it. You are putting words in Chuck Jones's mouth. You are telling the jury what you want them to believe but that's 1,000% acceptable on cross examination, where it isn't acceptable on direct it is proper cross examination technique, and I think you did an excellent job Kevin.
Kevin J. Hynes:You knew, when you found this note that Marla had said that she never left..
Trisha LaFache:That Marla lied. That's my favorite part. You know how many times at home, I'll go "that Marla lied, that Marla lied. Just walking around my home.
Kevin J. Hynes:I don't know. If you're doing that. I feel very feel sorry for you. I want to know how many people out there have
Trisha LaFache:Feel sorry for me, Kev videotapes of them back 30 years ago...listen, I was a professional prosecutor. I did a damn good job. You did! Well done. So what else did you cross him on? Besides the notes?
Kevin J. Hynes:The videotape, right? The videotape was very important in our view. And you know, I had seen that videotape now at that point, probably 100 times, right. And what we did was again, it was frame by frame. It was a stop action pinhole camera. When you watch it the first time you're like, I wish this was a better videotape. But you know, I wish this was better lit. I wish it was in the closet. I wish it was in the bedroom. I wish he was licking and sniffing it. None of it right. But you got what you got. Right? So what I did was I took it frame by frame. And I tried to show the jury through Chuck, that what he was doing was absolute proof that he didn't have permission authority right. So what I did was we turned the videotape on while Chuck was on the stand. The first thing you see is somebody enter through the door of the apartment and close the door behind them. I stopped it there. I said, Chuck, can you tell me who that is? And he said it was him? Right? The jurors didn't know that at the time because you couldn't see that well, but now he's admitted that that's him.
Trisha LaFache:Okay.
Kevin J. Hynes:The next thing I do is I hit the videotape, and it starts playing again. And I watch him turn around and lock the door.
Trisha LaFache:Okay.
Kevin J. Hynes:And I said, Isn't it true, sir, that you're locking the door there? And he said, "Yes, it is." And I said, What do you do next? And he said, "I don't remember." I said great. Play the videotape. We play it. And he stumps down and looks out the peep hole. I stopped it there. What are you doing there, Mr. Jones? "I'm looking out the people." Great. Next thing I do is I run the tape and now Chuck is walking towards the camera. And I stop it right before he disappears because we got a real good close up of Chuck's face.
Trisha LaFache:Great.
Kevin J. Hynes:And you know, he looks like Kevin Spacey or Dennis The Menace. He got that forehead. You know, he's in a suit. And I stopped there. And I said fair to say that you Mr. Jones?He says, "yes, that is me."
Trisha LaFache:You turned to the jury?
Kevin J. Hynes:I turned to the jury, I give him a little wink and a nod. No, I mean, that's fucking TV, you just I'm a professional. So then he disappears from the camera. And you know, fast forward it because it's like 10 or 15 minutes and nothing going on. And then lo and behold, there's another person, the same person is now in the hallway. And he's got a bag over his shoulder, a black garbage bag. I've said it before it looked like a creepy Santa Claus. And he's headed now down the hall towards the door before he gets to the door,I stopped it. I said, Who's that? He said, "That's me."
Trisha LaFache:Right.
Kevin J. Hynes:I said, "What do you have over your shoulder?" He said, "black garbage bag." I said "What's in the bag?" He said, "I don't remember."
Trisha LaFache:Okay.
Kevin J. Hynes:And you let him you let him lie there, right? That's fine. So then he goes to the door, and he unlocks the door. I said, "What are you doing there?" He said, "I'm unlocking the door." I said,"What did you do next?" He said,"I don't remember." I then play the videotape. and we see him then dump down again or, you know, look through the peep hole. I stopped there. And I said, "What are you doing there?" He said, "I'm looking through the peep hole."
Trisha LaFache:Ouch.
Kevin J. Hynes:So great, then he unlocks the door and he leaves and he disappears. Now, why did I ask those questions the way I asked them, right? What your job is at that point is to lock the defendant into a story. Our story to the jury was gonna be, he wasn't acting like somebody who was allowed to be there, right? What normal person goes into an apartment he's allowed to be there and immediately turns around and locks it? And then looks through the peep hole. He's acting like a cat burglar, right? Before he leaves, he does the same thing. He looks through the peep hole. Why is he doing that? Our argument in summation was going to be he did that because he didn't want to get caught. You don't want to get caught coming in, you want to get caught going out. Right? So we checked to make sure by looking through that peep hole. And I was able to take him frame by frame through that videotape, to show that that's the way he acted. And not only is that the way he acted that the jury saw, but that he admitted to acting that way. There was no argument for him to make later.
Trisha LaFache:Right.
Kevin J. Hynes:So once I had locked him in on that, I was very confident that the jury would understand that he was acting like somebody who didn't have permission and authority to be there. Because again, I had to show that, you know, not only did he not get notes from Marla saying, "go in there," right? But also that he was never really able to go in there and he wasn't allowed to be in there. So we did that. And then we moved on to the semen. This was probably one of the most bizarre rulings I've ever had from a judge because we wanted to prove as I told you guys before, we had we had semen in the shoes. It was determined to be semen. It was determined to be Chuck's semen because we had done a blood test. And what we wanted to show the jury was that look, he was not just taking these shoes to borrow them and give them back. He was doing things to them cutting them up, right putting his semen in them. He was doing things that showed and proved that he wasn't going to just give them back tomorrow. So what we wanted to do in this particular time was to show that the semen in the shoes was Chuck's. The defense had argued that that was prejudicial.
Trisha LaFache:Right.
Kevin J. Hynes:And I understand that argument like you know, look, if it comes out that you know he had done this to the shoes and it was definitely his semen. It's prejudicial.
Trisha LaFache:But all evidence is prejudicial. The standard for relevance is it's more prejudicial than it is probative. So your argument is, it's highly probative for an element of one of the crimes charged. Correct?
Kevin J. Hynes:The judge saw that too. And he decided to split the baby, right. So he decided in a Solomon like way to come up with this ruling. Which was I couldn't bring in the fact that there was semen in the shoes and that the semen was Chuck Jones on my direct case. What his ruling was pre trial was, if Chuck testifies, then you may ask him if he had a sexual relationship with the shoes. If he admits to that, then I was stuck with that answer. And I could not bring in the serology because he admitted to it and any other evidence on top of that would just be prejudicial. If he denied it, right, then the judge was going to allow me to bring in the serologist to show that in fact, there was semen in the shoes and that the semen was in fact, Chuck semen. And so probably one of the highlights of my my legal career and maybe my life, I had the opportunity to cross examine a defendant and I was able to ask the defendant, Chuck Jones, if in fact, he had a sexual relationship with the shoes.
Trisha LaFache:Wow.
Kevin J. Hynes:Yeah. We don't have a clip of this, do we?
Trisha LaFache:No, we couldn't find it! God, darn it.
Kevin J. Hynes:Well, you're an actor. Maybe we should act it out.
Trisha LaFache:You. You're, you're asking me to act it out?!
Kevin J. Hynes:Let's do it. And I'm gonna take your part too.
Trisha LaFache:I can do it.
Kevin J. Hynes:How about this? I'm gonna let you play Chuck Jones.
Trisha LaFache:Okay. I'll do it.
Kevin J. Hynes:As the New York Daily News reported, "Under cross examination Assistant District Attorney Kevin J. Hynes asked Jones, "Did you, sir have a physical, psychological, sexual relationship with Marla Trump's shoes?" Sure. Well, was it physical? Was it sexual in nature?
Trisha LaFache:It's not a fetish at all. If anyone had a fetish. It's Marla. She only wore Charles Jourdan shoes!
Kevin J. Hynes:So Mr. Jones, there were sexual implications were they not?
Trisha LaFache:Yes.
Kevin J. Hynes:Did you have a sexual, physical relationship with the shoes?
Trisha LaFache:Yes. It's an irresistible impulse. I don't understand it myself. Insane.
Kevin J. Hynes:That's the way it went. Even looking back on it now, I can't believe it. I honestly cannot believe it. But those are the things that went on in that trial.
Trisha LaFache:So what was the energy like, if you recall in the room, when you got him to admit that he had a physical, sexual relationship with the shoes?
Kevin J. Hynes:The jurors was shocked, right? I think they didn't understand what was going on. Because look, it's weird, right? I mean, it's like, what are we talking about here? I knew we were talking about semen in the shoes, right? The judge knew, the defence knew, obviously, Chuck knew, but we weren't able to say that. We could only say sexual relationship with the shoes. So part of me thought like, did they think he like, like, had sex with the shoes? Like I look at a lot of things going on in my mind.
Trisha LaFache:Well, we don't actually know what happened in the shoe. Because he may have.
Kevin J. Hynes:There's no video of it.
Trisha LaFache:Right, because Calamari and Pezzo did not set up a camera in the purple carpeted office.
Kevin J. Hynes:The Press went crazy. Because they knew, right? And the jurors, you know, they're told not to read the newspapers. But I don't think... Yeah, but I don't I don't know if they knew it was coming. I don't I don't know.
Trisha LaFache:You didn't know it was coming?!
Kevin J. Hynes:Wow. Yes. You asked about the energy in the room? Shock? Yeah! It was my ultimate moment as a criminal trial lawyer. But the press loved it. The jurors were confused. I think Chuck was disappointed. And I think at the end of the day, the reality was that I got my point across, which is what I wanted to do, and I was happy with it.
Trisha LaFache:So now it's time to sum up.
Kevin J. Hynes:Yeah. And, you know, the defense goes first. And so Morosco, you know, stands up and, you know, his, his closing argument was this weird, like conspiracy theory thing, right? In his mind, or at least the the argument he's making to the jury, is that there's a conspiracy and the conspiracy...
Trisha LaFache:Against Chuck Jones.
Kevin J. Hynes:Against Chuck Jones. It begins with Donald Trump. And the idea is that since Chuck Jones had possession of certain naked pictures and, and diaries, stuff that could embarrass Trump, that Trump decided diabolically on the you know, roof of, you know, Trump Tower, that he was gonna, you know, somehow ruin Chuck Jones and he decided, here's the conspiracy. I'm gonna control the New York City Police Department and the New York County DA's office and the press. And I'm going to show the world that Chuck Jones was this maniac who was stealing shoes and stealing underwear and like stealing stuff from Marla.
Trisha LaFache:But they never really cared about the shoes!
Kevin J. Hynes:Correct. And it was all about trying to discredit him.
Trisha LaFache:Right.
Kevin J. Hynes:So in Morosco's summation, all he talked about, in the beginning, was this vast conspiracy. And look, it was I let him go, right, because like, as we've talked about, like, you don't interrupt the...
Trisha LaFache:Run Forest!
Kevin J. Hynes:It was really you know, entertaining because like, none of it had been proven right. I mean, Trump didn't testify. So I don't know what the hell he was talking about. But this is this is the tech they took I'm sure that Chuck told him that right. He gives us great summation and he does a very good job. Problem is that he's got no facts to back any of it up.
Trisha LaFache:Right.
Kevin J. Hynes:And the other thing that bothered me a little bit was that in this conspiracy, I'm some kind of pawn right because I'm, I've been controlled by Donald Trump.
Trisha LaFache:And you're this like, young OP off the bus or something.
Kevin J. Hynes:I was raised by a prosecutor, right? I didn't just fall off the turn-up truck. I knew the fucking game. I wasn't gonna let Trump manipulate me for what? Like there was no payoff, there was nothing good for me. And at the end of the day, as I've said, I didn't want the damn case. But here we were. And now I was being told that I was involved in this massive conspiracy.
Trisha LaFache:And being manipulated.
Kevin J. Hynes:Being manipulated, which is something I don't like to manipulate. I don't like to be manipulated. I don't like other people to manipulate other people. Fine. Again, let the guy talk. He can't back it up. You know, our summation will clean it all up.
Trisha LaFache:Right.
Kevin J. Hynes:But then he did something that was I thought over the line, which he held up the notes, right.
Trisha LaFache:Okay.
Kevin J. Hynes:And he said that these notes prove that Chuck had permission to be there. These notes prove that Chuck had permission to take the shoes. And then he said, "If the prosecution thought they were forgeries, they would have called Marla back to the stand and they would have had Marla say that I did not write those notes." I objected. Because what actually happened was we had asked Andrias to recall Marla to say those notes were not written by me.
Trisha LaFache:Right.
Kevin J. Hynes:But Andrias said, you already proved it with Lesniak. You don't need to put her back on the stand. I'm not letting you do it.
Trisha LaFache:Right.
Kevin J. Hynes:So for the defense then to stand up and say, "They knew that they weren't forgeries, because they would have called Marla," when Morosco knew that I was barred from doing that so that was over the line. So I objected. Andrias who knew all this too, right? lost his shit. Because he did not like that type of lawyering in his courtroom. And he, you know, he went a little bit, you know, a little bit nuts. And, you know, here's where he went after Morosco when he told Morosco, you know, that's not true. Morosco said, "No, I didn't know that was not true."
Trisha LaFache:I know, why would Morosco say he didn't know?
Kevin J. Hynes:I think it was the heat of the moment type thing, right? I mean, you know, lawyers sometimes get in the middle of heat in the moment, they're in front of the jury. This argument ensues.
Trisha LaFache:But if he's prepared to say in front of the jury, he thinks he's gonna say it without anybody saying about it!?
Kevin J. Hynes:I think he probably knew he would get an objection. I don't think he knew that Andrias was gonna lose his mind the way it did. And I think that they got into this argument right in front of the jury, and like, Andrias basically threatened to throw them in jail, which was I mean, that was, you know, that was some serious shit going on.
Trisha LaFache:Can we just tell the listeners, first of all, it is so rare again, regardless of what you see on television, for anyone, let alone a judge, but either party to interrupt during an opening or a closing statement for the most part no matter what you want to say during an opening or closing you keep your mouth shut because it just makes you look so bad in front of the jury cuz you're gonna get your chance. Prosecution's gonna get their chance to stand up. But Kevin objects because this is a grievous. And then the judge goes crazy. This is rare.
Kevin J. Hynes:It's a strange case. It's a strange time in everyone's life.
Trisha LaFache:You know, my father told me the day I got sworn into the bar, he said, the one thing you have to be afraid of as a defense attorney is the clients themselves because they're going to want you to do things a lot of times and and and you're going to want to do things for them, because you're going to want to win. And to me, this is such a bad move on Morosco's part. He was concerned that the jury had thoughts in their head, "Did this lawyer know that forgeries were put in in this case? Did Chuck Jones put them up to it?" And I I feel that this was Morosco and Andrias having a beef and and Morosco was concerned for his own reputation in the legal community. And he went out on a limb here and held those papers up and said, "these aren't forgeries, and if they were forgeries, they would have called Marla." And then Morosco says, "I never heard Andrias say that there were no more witnesses. I never heard him say they couldn't call Marla." This is some, I mean, wow, he would look into so much trouble with the Bar Association for this!
Kevin J. Hynes:Look, he went he went on out on a limb. It was a last ditch effort. Look, there were a number of times during the trial where I think Morosco thought, you know, they had a winning site, right? Chuck did not hold up well, on the cross examination, right. I will tell you that and I know Morosco was present for that and he got to see that and he got to see the way the jurors reacted to that. So he's in summation and he is going to go for it all. I don't fault him for that. Look, I was I was a criminal defense attorney. I've done things as a criminal defense attorney that, you know, would be looked upon as wow, that's really you know, getting close to the line, maybe stepping over the line, you're fighting for your clients life at that point, it's summation, go for it, I got no problem with that. What I did have a problem with is him lying to the jury, and I wasn't going to let them get away with that. And that's my job as a prosecutor to make sure I step in and try to stop that. Andrias was very upset because he knew what the reality was. And he decided that, you know, he was going to now get into some kind of weird, screaming match with Morosco, which actually happened and was, you know, reported in the newspapers. After that argument, you know, he then finishes up and he says, look, the prosecution is not proving the case, beyond a reasonable doubt, you should find him not guilty, and he sits down and then you know, we get up very straightforward. Chuck did not have permission to be in her apartment. The videotape shows he's in the apartment, he admitted he was there. Chuck did not have permission to take the shoes. We know that we found the shoes in in his office, the handguns are the handguns they're in the office. It's all based, in fact, in stuff we've proven and we showed the videotape again, and said, look, this is someone who is acting in this videotape like he doesn't have permission to be there. We went through all that again. And, you know, when we were done with summations, we rested.
Trisha LaFache:The summations are over and the jury retires for deliberations.
Kevin J. Hynes:The judge charges them on the law. And then the jury, you know gets the case. And in that situation, the jury got the case, I think right after lunch. We thought we proved our case beyond a reasonable doubt. There obviously wasn't any mass conspiracy. They didn't prove anything like that. So it was hard for me to believe that they were not going to come back in like 20 minutes, right? With a guilty verdict. That's honestly the way I felt. And 20 minutes came in past and then an hour.
Trisha LaFache:Even if there was a mass conspiracy, you know. So what?! it doesn't go to the crimes charged, right?
Kevin J. Hynes:Yeah, my view is go back to the jury room and say, "Okay. Did they prove these cases beyond a reasonable doubt?" Yes. (Buzzer sound). Here we are. The verdict guilty. That's what I thought was going to happen.
Trisha LaFache:Then 20 minutes go by!
Kevin J. Hynes:Then an hour, then three hours and next thing you know, it's six o'clock, and the judge decides, okay, we're gonna let them go for the day. Come back tomorrow. And I gotta tell you like, from the beginning, from the first day I got involved, there was so many stupid twists and turns and I'm like really, really? The press is laughing at me. My colleagues are laughing at me. Like you're gonna lose this case now? Because look, generally speaking quick verdicts or prosecutions verdict, right? Jury goes in, boom, boom, boom, you're done. Maybe not 20 minutes, but truly an hour, two hours, whatever. On stupid little cases, right. This one, they're going overnight.
Trisha LaFache:Big case exception, Kev.
Kevin J. Hynes:I guess I wasn't thinking that at the time, though. To be honest, I was thinking we're thinking...
Trisha LaFache:You were thinking maybe I'm gonna lose this thing?
Kevin J. Hynes:I mean, what else are they doing? I mean, I'm thinking a hung jury, maybe?
Trisha LaFache:It's a three week trial, and it's it's two felony counts and some some guns.
Kevin J. Hynes:What I started to worry about there was hung jury, right, which is the worst possible outcome, right? One thing is like, alright, if you lose the shoe case, it's not great. Right, probably slink away and be fine. But hung jury means I'd have to try it again.
Trisha LaFache:Right.
Kevin J. Hynes:And like that, I mean, look, I'm talking about this thing. 30 years later, it's given me honestly and give me nightmares now. Could you imagine if I had to retry it back then. But right. Anyway, I probably wouldn't have made it. It just I mean, they should have been back in 20 minutes, but they weren't. So we went overnight, and we had to wait until the next day. And the next day we came in and again you have to remember what a prosecutors and defense attorneys do it during this period of time, right? Defense attorneys don't have offices in the building. I had an office in the building right so I would go down to the sixth floor and what you do when you have a jury out...
Trisha LaFache:You work on another case, right?
Kevin J. Hynes:Everybody knows you got a jury out, everyone's just like all over you like,"did you hear anything yet?" Everyone who's a prosecutor knows what that feels like. Right? So I said, pit in y ur stomach which is like, you kn
Trisha LaFache:They would throw their own shoes at you?! w, it's better to go the right ay because you know, you're jud ed on your convictions right? nd this one again, because the c se was different was very differ nt people come by, "Hey did y u get the shoe case verdict yet?" You know, people like wo en were throwing shoes at me. Like it was just like, I would
Kevin J. Hynes:I would come back from my office sometimes ome back from my office so etimes.... there would be a fucking shoe on my desk. Ha ha ha very fucking funny. I get it.
Trisha LaFache:Did you look at the imprint?
Kevin J. Hynes:No, I didn't look at the imprint. So the next day came in went back into the courtroom. Just to you know, say judge we're back you know, you go back down your office and you hang out. I remember you know, having my feet up on the desk looking at my wing tip shoes.
Trisha LaFache:Playing hang man, Tic Tac Toe. You and
Kevin J. Hynes:I'm watching my career go down the tubes. I'm Giannetta.. waiting for a verdict. The city's waiting for a verdict. Right? Everyone is watching. Everyone's watching. And so finally I think around noon, it was before lunch, I got a call
Trisha LaFache:It's been going on for a year and a couple of nd the clerk said come on up, We got a verdict." So we walk in and you know, the press is there and you know the looky loos are there and there's some people from my office there and just eople from around the ourthouse because they're like, h, there's a verdict in the sh w case. years!
Kevin J. Hynes:18 months. And so now we roll in, I'm sitting in my desk and Chuck is...
Trisha LaFache:Did Marla show up?
Kevin J. Hynes:No, no, no, the victim never shows up. Right? And so we're there and the judge comes out and he tells everybody, look, "I don't want to hear any bullshit once this thing's announced," right? Just no reactions. Let's just see what happens. At that point I was like, whoa, I mean, I think it's gonna be guilty, but like, maybe not now, like, maybe he's worried about my reaction. Um, but anyway, the jury comes out and..
Trisha LaFache:You take off your shoe and you throw it at him.
Kevin J. Hynes:Well here's the thing, right? The jury comes out. And there were two women on the jury who had been crying. And I'm like, Oh, no, like, What? What have I done to make these people cry?
Trisha LaFache:Isn't that like a good sign if they were crying? Because that means that you know, you kind of, you won, right?
Kevin J. Hynes:I don't know. I mean, I didn't know what the hell it meant. I mean, I was I was thinking to myself, "I want to cry," like believe me. Like if anyone had...
Trisha LaFache:I want to cry too!
Kevin J. Hynes:If anyone had reason to cry in that courtroom, it was me.
Trisha LaFache:But oh god, this is...you know what this?
Kevin J. Hynes:Yes..
Trisha LaFache:What is it?
Kevin J. Hynes:A violin.
Trisha LaFache:Oh, you finally know something! It's the smallest violin in the world playing My Heart Bleeds For You. By the way, I'm rubbing my fingers together. Chuck's potentially going to jail but Kevin wants to cry, ladies and gentlemen.
Kevin J. Hynes:I was 30 years old. I mean, I had I had hopes and dreams. So the jury comes out and this is what happened...
Court Clerk:Has the jury agreed upon a verdict?
Grand Jury Recording:Yes.
Court Clerk:Will the defendant please rise? How say you with the count one charging the defendant, Charles Jones, with the crime of burglary in the second degree. Guilty or not guilty?
Grand Jury Recording:Guilty.
Court Clerk:How say you with the count two of charging the defendant, Charles Jones, with criminal possession of stolen property in the fourth degree. Guilty or not guilty?
Grand Jury Recording:Guilty.
Court Clerk:How say you with the count three charging the defendant, Charles Jones, with the crime of criminal possession of a weapon in the fourth degree? Guilty or not guilty?
Grand Jury Recording:Guilty.
Court Clerk:Thank you. You may be seated.
Kevin J. Hynes:He just, you know, he shook his head and then sat down and he was convicted on all charges.
Trisha LaFache:Guilty of felony burglary. He's guilty of felony criminal possession of stolen property and he is guilty of weapons possession.
Kevin J. Hynes:Yes.
Trisha LaFache:Which meant he faced a mandatory minimum of 18 months.
Kevin J. Hynes:Yes.
Trisha LaFache:He could get up to 15 years in prison but a mandatory minimum of 18 months.
Kevin J. Hynes:Yes.
Trisha LaFache:And that means prison because you can only do 12 months and under in jail.
Kevin J. Hynes:Yes. But this was no surprise to Chuck Jones. Every time we made him an offer of an ACD he knew and was told by the judge, by the prosecution, by his lawyers, if you lose at trial, you're going to state prison.
Trisha LaFache:So the the prosecution made a motion to have Chuck remanded to jail while he was awaiting his actual sentencing. And the defense opposed that motion and Andrias granted the defense's motion for him to stay out on his bail pending sentencing. So Chuck did leave the courtroom for the time being.
Kevin J. Hynes:Yes, yes, he was convicted. We moved to have him remanded because it's a standard move back in the day of what you did. The judge ruled that, you know, he, you know, he could stay out pending sentencing. And Chuck went home. And then I got a call from Donald Trump.
Trisha LaFache:So Donald Trump finally calls you?
Kevin J. Hynes:The verdict was delivered, went back to my office, got a bunch of congratulations from my, you know, colleagues, and bosses. I closed the door, took a deep breath, I was happy it was over. I then get a call. Picked up the phone. And it was it was Donald Trump. I said hello. And he said, "I want to congratulate you," and I thought it was somebody golfing with me first cuz like, again, I had not spoken to him, right? I thought maybe with somebody goofing with me, but you know, I was like listening. And he said, "I want you to meet Marla and I for dinner tonight to congratulate you on your fine work in this case." And I was like, "okay," and he was like, "meet us at Trump Tower." Right? How do you turn that down? At that point, you have to remember this guy was you know, a larger than life figure like I'm, I know that he's a very, very volatile guy. Now I know many, many people hate him. Many people, he was very polarizing. At the time. He wasn't right. He was just a dude. A clown. You know, somebody who generated a lot of press and who had definitely, you know, imprinted himself on once about imprints imprinted himself on New York City. He was also somebody who was, you know, prominent in the community. So, you know, he invited me to dinner. I went to dinner. Yeah. First, I went out for a couple drinks with some friends first, but I ended up showing up there at Trump Tower, whatever restaurant it was, and we sat down and I got to tell you Trish, it was fucking surreal. I mean the dude is exactly what you think the dude is right? He is. Even back then his hair was weird. I mean, it was it was. And she's gorgeous, right? And she's beautiful. And she was very, very nice. And he was very, very happy that the outcome had come that way. I would say when I first came to the table, he shook my hand. He thanked me.
Trisha LaFache:Were his hands huge?
Kevin J. Hynes:Haha...He thanked me. He said, I had somebody in the courtroom the whole time. They said you did an incredible job. I said, "Thank you." We sat down, we began to order. He then said, "I want you to come work for me." I told him, "Look, that's very nice of you. Um, but I just," he said,"just think about it , think about." I guess I was flattered? But still like, I'm not going. That's not happening. Right. And you my career trajectory was definitely plateaued.
Trisha LaFache:Maybe you haven't heard I just won the shoe case. Like, I'm moving on up.
Kevin J. Hynes:My phone's ringing off the hook. And so so
Trisha LaFache:Yes. I said, you know. He said, I don't want you to think of I don't want you to tell me now. Just think about it. Right? And I was like, Okay, fine. And then we we started having dinner. And
Kevin J. Hynes:That was the dinner. And people have asked me what was remarkable, and they've said this about this dude, his attention span is not really long, right? So like after this, like 10 minutes of telling me I' the best lawyer in New York ity. He basically ignored m for the next hour and a half while we ate dinner, I talke to Marla, he talked to Richard eople came over to his tabl, he had to get up make some p a lot of times like you met him. What was he like? I mean, he was one calls. He was wheeling and d aling doing with whatever onald Trump was. I ate my yo know, steak, who knows I ate whatever they you know, I ord red. I ate all the food, had couple cocktails. And then I aid thank you and, and disappeared into the night. very nice to me for 10 minutes. And then after 10 minutes, it was as if I did not exist.
Trisha LaFache:Mm hmm. Okay, that tracks.
Kevin J. Hynes:So then in April, we came back for sentencing. April 7 of 1994 Chuck gets sentenced. Right?
Trisha LaFache:Okay.
Kevin J. Hynes:And Andrias could have sentenced to 15 years. And he allowed Chuck to make a statement first.
Trisha LaFache:Yes, we have it.
Chuck Jones Recording:I regret all the pain and anguish that my two daughters and my wife have suffered from the result of this.
Kevin J. Hynes:This is always the sad part, right? Here's a guy who's got kids, who's got a wife, you know, he's about to be sentenced to prison. And he's now saying that he's sorry, that he, you know, that he brought this upon, you know, his family, the pain that he brought upon his family. I mean, that's, you feel horrible.
Trisha LaFache:Even if you don't feel bad for him, you feel bad for them?
Kevin J. Hynes:Yeah. You know, and then, you know, Andrias heard that and took it all in. And then he decided on his sentence. And, you know, he had things to say too.
Judge Richard T. Andrias Recording:My intention would be normally to sentence you to a time in excess of the minimum, because you had all your chances to resolve it. But I'm satisfied that you have a compulsion here, that couldn't really allow you to resolve the matter before this, and that you went forward, for reasons that you really couldn't control. My hope in the future is that you get that in hand, and that parole monitors you, you get yourself together, and you stay away from this person. If she doesn't want to have any dealings with you, that is her choice. I'm going to send it to you the minimum, one and a half to four and a half on the burglary charge. 1-3 on the possession of stolen property, concurrent a year on the gun case, the bi-operational order that would be concurrent. That's a sentence of the court.
Kevin J. Hynes:Andrias put into words exactly what I thought and exactly what a lot of the city thought I think at the time, which is like, why the hell did we have to go through this whole thing, right? Why in God's name, are we here today? And the reality is, we were there that day, because of one person and that was Chuck Jones. Should he have gone to jail? It's what the state law was. I mean, he had to go to jail. Right? Was justice served? I don't know Trish, we sat here a couple days. You tell me?
Trisha LaFache:Couple of days? I feel like I set out on this whole thing to try to figure out what was going on with Chuck Jones. Why would he do this? I think it boils down to he was obsessed with Marla Maples. Was he mistreated by the Trump's? You know, do people deserve to be paid when they offer value into your life when they come to your rescue? There's articles where Chuck talks about his phone bill went from $80 to$1,000 a month. He had he had paparazzi trying to sneak into his office. He lost clients because of the work he did for Marla that he was never paid for. But ultimately he was offered ACD after ACD, an adjournment in contemplation of dismissal. He refused to accept responsibility but shock. When you enter the criminal justice system, you make a choice. To roll the dice, there's always arguments on both sides. But Chuck made a choice. He made a choice. All you guys asked him to do was stay away from Marla Maples to get some help, and to not get in trouble again. Now the knock in trouble again, that was a slam dunk because he had gone 52 years of his life without getting in trouble. Seems like what the problem was, was stay away from Marla Maples. And in this sentencing instructions all Andrias wanted him to do service time and stay away from Marla. I'm hoping that that's what he did.
Kevin J. Hynes:Yeah. But you know, Chuck.
Chuck Jones Recording:And as far as I don't care what the verdict was I I'm still not guilty.
Trisha LaFache:We want to thank all the listeners for coming on this ride with us with Chuck, with Donald, and with Marla Trump and her shoes. Heeled is a Justkill Production produced by Tandace Khorrami, Luke Groneman, and Tyler Patrick Jones. It's written by Kevin J. Hynes and myself Trisha LaFache. The Heeled themse music was written by Chad Crouch. Additional shout out to Mike Shafranak, our editing wizard, our sound engineer Kyle Raps and toMax Alcabez, the owner of Pink Cloud Studios in Los Angeles, where we record these shoes-capades. Follow us on our Instagram at heeled.podcast or check us out on our website heeledpodcast.com.