Chapter Two | Naked Pictures

After Chuck Jones is arrested for stealing Marla Maples' shoes, underwear, and "other items," the police discover that some of the "other items" may be naked pictures of Marla and Donald Trump...

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Trisha LaFache: 0:02

Previously on Heeled.

TV News Reporter: 0:04

He is known as Marla Maples' publicist, but Chuck Jones may have really walked in her footsteps.

Trisha LaFache: 0:09

I was fascinated by this guy who took a match to his whole life over a penchant for pumps.

Donald Trump Recording: 0:15

She said somebody's stealing my shoes.

TV News Reporter: 0:17

Dozens of items had been stolen from her closet and drawers. And now Jones is suspected of swiping them.

Kevin J. Hynes Recording: 0:22

He arrives at the Plaza thinking he's there to work, but instead everyone starts ripping the place apart, right? Marla, her mom, Calamari, Pezzo, the cops. They open up this one closet and an avalanche of shoes falls out ended up being over 30 pairs.

Trisha LaFache: 0:35

No No, this can't be real 30 pairs of shoes in a small office?

Kevin J. Hynes: 0:39

And that's not all they found Trisha.

TV News Reporter: 0:41

Police found the footwear along with two guns and a pornographic shoe fetish magazine called Spike.

Trisha LaFache: 0:46

You already had the shoes and guns. What else could you have been looking for?

Kevin J. Hynes: 0:50

The Diary was supposedly filled with some personal stuff right? So Marla wanted that back and the photos allegedly there were these sexy pictures of Marla.

Trisha LaFache: 0:58

Okay.

Kevin J. Hynes: 0:58

And maybe Trump.

Trisha LaFache: 1:00

Ewww.

Kevin J. Hynes: 1:00

And possibly Marla and Trump.

Trisha LaFache: 1:02

What?

Kevin J. Hynes: 1:02

And a banana.

Trisha LaFache: 1:05

I'm your host Tricia LaFache. And this is

Heeled: 1:08

The Curious Case of Marla Trump's Shoes. Okay, let's head back to the office. Okay, we are with the purple carpet and the mirrored walls and whole squad is there with the shoes and the panties and all other dainties all over the floor and Marla is crying and the officers and detectives got eyes on the guns. And then what happens?

Sound Clip: 1:35

Well, all right, so they're all there all day. Like you said the crews there right. There is Giannetta. Police Officer Giannetta. Police officer Higgins. Right.

Trisha LaFache: 1:41

Lynch. Lynch is still there? Or did he leave?

Kevin J. Hynes: 1:43

No Lynch is there.

Trisha LaFache: 1:44

Okay.

Kevin J. Hynes: 1:45

And, you know, Marla is there and Chuck.

Trisha LaFache: 1:48

Anne Ogletree.

Kevin J. Hynes: 1:49

Anne Ogletree, Marla's motherer. Um, and, you know, Chuck is, he's crying, he's all upset about what's happened, obviously, and he asks if he can make a phone call. So you know, Lynch Lynch is, you know, he's, he's got control of the scene at that point. He's like, look, you know, guy wants to make a phone call, let him make a call.

Trisha LaFache: 2:07

Okay.

Kevin J. Hynes: 2:07

So Chuck, gets on the phone, and he calls a guy named Robert Emmett Heaphy. Now, Heaphy is a friend of chucks and Marla's and Donald and he's also a criminal defense attorney.

Trisha LaFache: 2:17

Okay.

Kevin J. Hynes: 2:17

A guy who I knew. I mean, Heaphy's like, you know, he was probably about 45-50 at the time. He's, you know, good looking dude, you know, tall, got wavy blond hair, no serious criminal defense attorney. But you know, a bit of a bugaboo.

Trisha LaFache: 2:30

Wait, what, in what context is he a bugaboo?

Kevin J. Hynes: 2:33

Well, I mean, like, what a bugaboo. He's like some guy who's always like, running around, he's got a scheme in his head. He's, he's, you know, it was the 90's right? There was a lot of crime going on. And guys like Heaphy were always running around trying to work hustling up work. Yeah, I'm so really, you know, an aggressive dude. So Heaphy talks to chuck for a little bit. And then Chuck says to Marla,"Heaphy wants to talk to you." And again, like Marla knows Heaphy right. So she gets on the phone with Heaphy. And she supposedly has this conversation in which Heaphy allegedly says to Marla, you know, "you should you should not press charges, you should let this case go away. Because the end this is going to be a very embarrassing, you know, press case, and it's not going to be good for you. It's not going to end well."

Trisha LaFache: 3:14

And it's not like Donald and Marla haven't already had their fair share of bad press.

Sound Clip: 3:18

Well, I mean, there's bad press is good press. I mean, I think Donald would say.

Trisha LaFache: 3:21

All press is good press.

Kevin J. Hynes: 3:22

There you go. So I think you know, Heaphy makes this pitch tomorrow and Marla's like look, it's out of my hands. I don't think I can control the cops at this point. He did some terrible things. And there are guns here. And so Heaphy then asked to talk to the cops, Marla puts them on with the cops, they pass the phone.

Trisha LaFache: 3:36

Can you hear it here?! Heaphy wants to talk to you Marla.

Kevin J. Hynes: 3:41

Yeah, so like, you know, you know, Lynch gets on the phone with Heaphy and Heaphy says, "Listen, you're gonna take him downtown. This is my client. Do not speak to him anymore. You know, he's represented by counsel." And Lynch, of course, being a professional detective says,"Absolutely." So they hang up the phone and the next thing that happens is that the phone rings again and this time, it's Lynne Jones, who is Chuck Jones'es wife. Obviously, somehow probably he called Lynne and Lynne decided she wanted to call the office. And Lynne doesn't ask to speak to Chuck, Lynne wants to speak to Marla.

Trisha LaFache: 4:10

Okay.

Kevin J. Hynes: 4:11

Marla is friends with Lynne. She knows Lynne so she gets on the phone with Lynne and she's like..

Trisha LaFache: 4:16

Please don't do this to my husband.

Kevin J. Hynes: 4:17

This is Lynne Jones's pitch. Don't do this to my husband. You know, we can work this out. There's other ways to deal with this. And Marla at that point is in a hurry. She's like, look, I can't.

Trisha LaFache: 4:25

Why is she in a hurry?

Kevin J. Hynes: 4:26

Well, she's got she got a date with Donald, right. I mean, they're actually on their way to the Democratic National Convention. In 1992 Democratic National Convention was held in Madison Square Garden in New York.

TV News Reporter: 4:38

Madison Square Garden gets ready for the next main attraction. The Democrats. This is Bill Clinton's big moment. If Timing is everything in politics, and it probably is. The timing couldn't be better for Clinton with the Democratic Convention opening Monday.

Kevin J. Hynes: 4:52

The governor at the time is Mario M Cuomo.

Trisha LaFache: 4:54

Mario Cuomo. That is Andrew Cuomo, the current governor of New York's daddy.

Sound Clip: 4:59

Correct. So before andrew cuomo was governor, it was a couple of governors in between and before that was Mario Cuomo. And Mario Cuomo was a very powerful governor in the state and the Democratic National Convention was being held that year in Madison Square Garden. And Mario had invited Donald to the Democratic National Convention that night. And of course, Marla was gonna go with Donald. She had to get out of there. She had the you know, rush home get dressed.

Trisha LaFache: 5:24

Look for a pair of shoes.

Kevin J. Hynes: 5:25

Very good. Off to the Democratic National Convention.

Trisha LaFache: 5:29

While Chuck is headed downtown, honey.

Kevin J. Hynes: 5:32

Yep.

Trisha LaFache: 5:42

Now, Chuck is leaving his office with the cops headed down to the precinct. Walk us through the process at this point. What's happening for Chuck next?

Sound Clip: 5:52

Sure. So like, so they take him from his office, right? They put him in handcuffs. Handcuff me on his back, they put them in a patrol car. And they're going to take him to Midtown North Precinct, which is where this happened, right. And at the time, Midtown North Precinct was on 54th Street, Manhattan. And then they're taking him there for process. Processing includes Chuck needs to get his finger printed. They got to run his rap sheet, you know, see if he has any prior arrests, any prior warrants, and then they're gonna fill out an online booking sheet, which is all the defendants information, right?

Trisha LaFache: 6:19

Yeah.

Kevin J. Hynes: 6:20

And the crimes that they're going to charge him.

Trisha LaFache: 6:21

How big is forehead is.

Sound Clip: 6:23

He obviously had some problems at this point. So they take him down there. And they print them and it's ink printing, right so that they ink print his fingers, and they take those fingerprints and they send them to Albany. Basically, the the fingerprinting process takes about 12 to 24 hours. And so in that time, the defendant needs to be housed someplace. So they housed the defendant in a holding cell at Midtown North Precinct.

Trisha LaFache: 6:45

Okay.

Kevin J. Hynes: 6:45

Now, holding cells at the precincts generally 10 by 10 feet, right. And all of the people who were arrested in the Midtown North Precinct over the last 12 to 24 hours are in that are in that cell. And you have to remember, like, this is the 90's. Right. So we're talking about, like, you know, crackheads and murderers. And you know, a muggers, like some bad people. And there's Chuck right in his suit, and probably very nervous to be in the situation he's in.

Trisha LaFache: 7:11

Yeah, I mean, I wonder what's going through Chuck's mind because he's a publicist. Right. And so I don't know, has he ever even been to a jail to bail out a client? Or, you know, does do you think he's thinking that this isn't really happening? Or he's grasping the situation?

Sound Clip: 7:26

Look, obviously, I'm not in Chucks brain. And thank God for that. Because that seems like a scary, dangerous place to be. But look, having represented clients in the past have never been through the system before. It is a harrowing event. Right?

Trisha LaFache: 7:37

Yes.

Kevin J. Hynes: 7:38

There's a story to tell about me being arrested at some point, but we can do that another time.

Trisha LaFache: 7:42

I can't wait!

Kevin J. Hynes: 7:43

I've been in the system. Anyway, so Chuck is there and his his prints come back clean. So that's good for him. He doesn't have any prior arrest. He doesn't have any warrants out. And since his lawyer told the cops that he was represented by counsel, the detectives can't interview him.

Trisha LaFache: 7:57

Yeah. And my experience with the feds, the defendant asked me for a lawyer has never been a huge deterrent to them speaking and continuing the questioning, but in this case, I will buy that. They didn't question Chuck.

Sound Clip: 8:07

Yeah, no, they didn't question him. They already had enough. I mean, he was, he was, he was already in the office saying that he's sorry he did it.

Trisha LaFache: 8:14

Yeah.

Kevin J. Hynes: 8:14

So at that point, after the arrest record comes back clean, now, Chuck is going to be taken from the Precinct on 54th Street, down to 100 Centre Street, which is the criminal court building, where they will conduct an arraignment for him.

Trisha LaFache: 8:26

Okay, so now, would you mind walking us through that process?

Sound Clip: 8:30

Yeah. So I mean, the first thing that happens is there gonna be there's gonna be a perp walk. Right. And that's, that's basically the New York City Police Department and the press of New York City having this understanding that when you have a case, that's a big case, that's a press worthy case, that the police will notify the press that, hey, we got this defendant, he's of some interest, if you want to come and take pictures of him and take some photographs, and also some...

Trisha LaFache: 8:52

I'm sorry, What? The police department calls the press to, to cover the walk to the bus?

Sound Clip: 8:59

I mean, look, there's a press office in the police department, right? We're gonna talk about that a lot later. But I mean, yes, there's a press office in the police department and they notified the crime reporters that there is a defendant of some interest that you may be interested in learning about. So you know, there's there's this thing in New York City that's always been which is called a perp walk. And what a perp walk is, is when the police take a defendant from the precinct, out to the street, and then onto the bus, there's an opportunity for the press to photograph him and also get some moving pictures of him as he as he makes us walk.

Trisha LaFache: 9:32

This does not sound fair. This sounds like the cops are interfering with the defendant's right to be presumed innocent until proven guilty.

Sound Clip: 9:41

Yeah, I mean, that's that's a that's a nice legal theory that you have, but like in it, look in the 90s, right, that you have to remember the cops and then the press worked hand in hand together.

Trisha LaFache: 9:50

Yeah, I don't have to remember it. I have to learn it. Like I didn't know that.

Sound Clip: 9:54

We're in the 90s. And this is the way it went down and Chuck did a perp walk to some great photos of him leaving the Midtown North Precinct. Going from the precinct to the bus.

Chuck Jones Recording: 10:02

I can't comment anything....

Trisha LaFache: 10:06

I feel like you are kind of, you know, disregarding my legal theory here, but you know, most people think of, you know, Kim Kardashian tipping off the paparazzi that she's leaving Craig's not the police tipping off, you know, WKTV News that Chuck Jones is headed to 100 Centre Street.

Kevin J. Hynes: 10:26

I don't know who Kim Kardashian is. Okay. So what happens is he's put on a bus, right? Now you got to remember back in the day, there was so much crime going on that in order to transport a prisoner, a defendant, Chuck from the precinct down to 100 Centre Street in lower Manhattan, you would have to transport them in some way. And what New York City Police Department decided back then was we're gonna get these buses, right. There was a full size buses and so 10 to 20 prisoners get on the bus, the Midtown North Precinct. They are then taken on this trip down to 100 Centre Street in lower Manhattan. Yeah, and on the way because there are a number of precincts that are south of town, North Precinct, they stop off in other precincts Midtown South, you know, the Ninth, maybe the Seventh, they pick up these different prisoners at this place. So Chuck, in addition to his friends from the Midtown North Precint that were arrested in the last 24 hours, he gets to also meet some new prisoners that come down. The bus then like finally will turn into 100 Centre Street and there's a driveway that will take you to the basement, the bus actually drives into the basement 100 Centre Street, and 100 Centre Street is this giant building, right? It houses all the criminal courts. It also houses the houses, the arraignment courts, which is where Chuck is going eventually.

Trisha LaFache: 11:38

Yeah.

Kevin J. Hynes: 11:38

But in the basement of 100 Centre Street is this gigantic cage. And it's about the size of a football field. It's gigantic.

Trisha LaFache: 11:46

Football field?

Kevin J. Hynes: 11:47

It's big, right? It's it takes up most of the basement. And the reason for that is that these prisoners need to be housed someplace before they go up to see the judge. And it's disgusting, right? It is one of the most disgusting places I've ever seen. It's got one toilet, probably for 200 people in the corner of the room and it's like there's no store anything right there.

Trisha LaFache: 12:06

The tin toilet.

Kevin J. Hynes: 12:07

I mean, it's a mob scene, right? People talk about social distancing. Now, that was not going on. These people have packed in like sardines.

Trisha LaFache: 12:14

Spooning!

Kevin J. Hynes: 12:15

And then there's poor Chuck, you know, in his suit with no belt, no shoelaces and no tie. And, you know, the people are in there bed people. Right. We're talking like crackheads, and like murderers and rapists and robbers and muggers, it's like....

Trisha LaFache: 12:29

Yeah, and there's also, you know, indecent exposures. I mean, there's all kinds of guys in there, right? Good and bad.

Sound Clip: 12:34

I've been down there a bunch of times. I don't ever want to be there as a prisoner. I don't want to be there as a lawyer anymore. It's a gross place. But that's where they put Chuck in. And remember, now you're talking another 12 to 24 hours to see a judge because there's so many people that need to see the judge.

Trisha LaFache: 12:48

The volume!

Kevin J. Hynes: 12:49

And yeah, I mean, we did 24 hour arraignments at the time.

Trisha LaFache: 12:51

Yeah they got Night Court.

Kevin J. Hynes: 12:52

They had Night Court. But Chuck ended up having to spend the night in that cage.

Trisha LaFache: 12:57

And we're joking about the shoelaces and even though he probably didn't have laces, maybe he did, and the belt and the tie, but you the reason that they take all those from you is so that you don't try to do away with yourself.

Sound Clip: 13:11

They protect the prisoner by not letting them have anything I mean, look, I don't know if Chuck had shoe laces or not. All I can tell you is I wore wingtip shoes at the time because that's what prosecutors wore.

Trisha LaFache: 13:20

I don't know maybe he was a penny loafer guy.

Sound Clip: 13:22

This is this is a show about shoes. Maybe I should be a little bit more detailed about the shoes. I'm sorry.

Trisha LaFache: 13:32

Okay, so now Chuck is going to come out of the cage, leave his new friends behind hasta la vista, and he's going to head up to be arraigned. Can you walk us through that?

Sound Clip: 13:43

Yeah, so what happens is the cop after, you know, he houses the prisoner puts Chuck down in the basement, he goes up and sees the DA right and what the cops need to do at that point is explained to the DA what exactly the fact pattern is right. So after after hearing from Giannetta that you know, Chuck had stolen property from Marla and broken into her apartment and you know, had guns in his office, the DA's job, you know, rookie DA's job at that point is to figure out what charges to charge it. And so in this case, it's pretty simple. You know, I I used to do this. You listen to the cop, you decide, Okay, I'm gonna charge burglary in the third degree, criminal possession of stolen property a fifth degree, criminal possession of weapons in the third.

Trisha LaFache: 14:21

And this is the way that it goes. But it is very reliant on the cops interpretation of the story at all times.

Kevin J. Hynes: 14:28

Right? I mean, the defense is not there. So the cops are going to tell the story and the DA's, and it's 1000 cases probably that day.

Trisha LaFache: 14:34

Right.

Kevin J. Hynes: 14:35

This one's a little bit stranger than your average crackhead. But I mean, sure, I mean, this is what happens. So after that complaint is written up, it's taken to the arraignment court. And that's when the defense is going to be arraigned now, Chuck meets his new lawyer it's not Heaphy, right? Heaphy makes a decision which I think is the right decision that since I know all of these parties, I'm going to get a different lawyer to come in.

Trisha LaFache: 14:53

Because they're all kind of crew, friends.

Sound Clip: 14:55

They all know each other so..

Trisha LaFache: 14:56

Same circles.

Kevin J. Hynes: 14:56

So Heaphy does the right thing. He reaches out to this guy named Herold Price Fahringer, right? And Fahringer is a serious lawyer. I mean, this guy is a major defense attorney time. I remember from back in the day he looked more

Trisha LaFache: 15:05

I just feel like Newman did not want the papers like a wall street banker than he did like a defense attorney. He was at the shock of white hair. He's probably in his early 60s, three piece suits, very well dressed. I was like, thoguht maybe he had a pocketwatch. But you know, that may not have been right. And this guy, you know, Fahringer had represented some of the big guys in the day, right? So like Larry Flynt, who was the publisher of Hustler and had a lot of problems with First Amendment issues. Fahringer represented him, Calus Von Bulo. I mean, there was a movie in t e 90s Reversal of Fortune. V n Bulow was charged with killi g his wife, who is this, you kno, multi millionaire in Rho e Island. You know, Fahri ger represented him, Claus Von B low. And then like, you know, Jean Harris, who was the diet d ctor killer, right. So back i the 90s, there was this woman amed Jean Harris, who was alle edly involved in some love tri ngle with a doctor named Herman Tarnower. And he was a very f mous diet doctor at the tim, and she allegedly killed him Fahringer had a hand in that ca e. So this is a guy who was li e involved with major cases i the early 90s. And he rolls n and he's now going to repr sent Chuck Jones, which again, I think Heaphy did the right thi g, bringing in a, you know, a b g shot. And so the arraignment appens at that point. An what that is, basically is t at the DA will now relate t the judge the facts an circumstances surrounding the defendants arrest. So in t is case, Chuck was, you know, ch rged with burglary in the thi d degree and other charges. So t e DA asked for a $10,000 bail an Newman, you know, listens to Fahringer, who says, look, he's you know, he's got a family, he s got a house, he's got all r asons to fight these charges. He s not going to go anywhere right? Please release him on his own recognizance Judge Barbara Newman, for h r own reasons, decides not to d that and sets bail in the am to report that Chuck was released on his own recognisance or else she would have gone with the the defense attorneys suggestion of no bail.

Kevin J. Hynes: 16:55

Look, the reason Newman did what she did is in Newman's mind, right? I really can't tell you why she did that. But the reality is this, Chuck is supposed to have $5,000. By the way, he's got a million dollar house, right? He's got his vibrant business. His wife should have showed up with the cash. He looked around the courtroom probably looking for Lynne but she wasn't there. And so since there was no $5,000, since there was no bail bondsman there, instead of going home that night, Chuck was then taken to the tombs.

Trisha LaFache: 17:20

To the tombs we go then. Okay, so now that Chuck does not make bail. He's spending the night in the clink. Where does he head?

Kevin J. Hynes: 17:40

There's a place called the Tombs right? And like, basically, it's the colloquial name for like Manhattan Detention Center. Right. And that's, they call it the Tombs because it is kind of like a tomb-y type building. You gotta like picture this, right? So there's these two buildings down in lower Manhattan, right? One is 100 Centre Street, which we talked about, right? It's where the arraignment courts are all the courthouses are in this one building called 100 Centre Street. And you know that there's a basement, which we talked about with the cage, and then the arraignment court. And then next to it is the Manhattan Detention Complex, which they call the Tombs.

Trisha LaFache: 18:13

Right.

Kevin J. Hynes: 18:13

And in between, like connecting one building to another is this thing called the Skyway. Right? They did it that way for safety reasons, right. So if you got somebody who's going to be in on bail, and they're gonna go to the Tombs, you can take them over the Skyway rather than bringing them back outside on the streets. And that skyway has got this reputation. How do I say it? Like? They used to call it the bridge of sighs. Right? Yeah, exactly. And the story behind that is like when people are on trial, and they're at the Tombs, right, there, we go over from the Tombs over to the courthouse, and you would have your trial, and then when you were convicted, you would then be brought over to Skyway. And people say that you could actually hear the people sigh after they've been convicted. So often the bridges, you know, through the bridge of sighs, where they take Chuck, and he gets there, and he's then you know, processed, and he's put in a cell. I mean, it's a look, it's not as bad as Rikers, but it's, you know, it's not the fucking Ritz, right? And so Chuck then gets in that cell, and he's sitting there and you know, a lot of times you can get bailed out from the Tombs, right? But, Lynne never showed up on Thursday. So, unfortunately, Chuck had to spend the next night Thursday night in jail at in the Tombs waiting to get bailed out.

Trisha LaFache: 19:23

I think that people just love to say the Tombs, because of the imagery that it it conjures up in the Jeffrey Epstein documentary, Filthy Rich. They're talking about how he's housed in this horrible jail. And it's it's so horrible that it's known colloquially as the Tombs and of course, he wasn't housed at the Tombs because he was brought up on federal charges. So he was housed in another disgusting place, the Metropolitan Correctional Center, which is my old town, but I just thought it was funny that they wanted to jam the Tombs and they're so bad that they pretended that that's where he was, and he wasn't.

Sound Clip: 19:59

Yeah, I mean, look to Probably a TV show that we can call to Tombs.

Trisha LaFache: 20:02

Yeah. So now it's Thursday night and Chuck heads back to the Tombs just hanging out with the rest of the riffraff.

Sound Clip: 20:11

Well I mean i'm sure his lawyers told him keep your mouth shut you know we're gonna get your bail may take a day but once we get the bail money you'll be out so keep your mouth shut. Keep your head down. You're gonna be fine.

Trisha LaFache: 20:20

But that's not what happens?

Kevin J. Hynes: 20:22

No, actually Chuck got access to a telephone and he started making some phone calls, which...

Trisha LaFache: 20:26

This is why I love Chuck!

Kevin J. Hynes: 20:28

He's not listening to his lawyers at this point.

Trisha LaFache: 20:33

Our Chuck decides to call reporters from New York Daily News and New York Post and spill his guts. Chuck's jailhouse statements are captured in the New York Post article, "Marla's Sole Man, Please Forgive Me." An anguished Chuck Jones called The Post from jail yesterday, admitted he had swiped Marla Maples's high heels and begged for forgiveness. Quote, "Donald and Marla, I love them both. As far as I'm concerned, I failed them both miserably." Chuck said in an exclusive interview. "What I did was silly, but it's a serious problem that I've faced by myself. But now everyone is taking potshots at me," Chuck sob. "I haven't seen my kids in three days. I'm afraid they won't know their father anymore." Wait, he confessed in jail?

Sound Clip: 21:25

Yeah, look, what do you want me to tell you that guy got a hold of a phone and decided that he was a publicist. I started calling his friends.

Trisha LaFache: 21:32

I'm just saying I can't imagine he's just hanging around the Tombs, running out of tissue paper and he thinks you know, you I'm gonna do I'm gonna ring up Frankie D over at The Post and just tell him I did it. Yes, he is a publicist. And at this point, I'm thinking he's not a very good publicist.

Sound Clip: 21:47

He's definitely a strange guy.

Trisha LaFache: 21:49

Wait, there's more. Yesterday, the New York Post reported that Donald Trump tried to strike a deal with Jones offering not to press charges against him if he would hand over a series of potentially embarrassing photographs of Donald and Marla. But Chuck, who reportedly nixed the deal was not in the mood to talk about photos yesterday. Quote, "I know what the pictures are. But I'm not going to comment. I cannot talk about the pictures. Let Marla deal with it." End quote. Why would he discuss the charges against him? But not the photos? I have never heard of a defendant confessing to the things he's being charged with and then pivoting to, "I can't comment," on the thing that he's 100% not being charged with. What did you think when you heard this?

Sound Clip: 22:36

Look, one of the things that I was very concerned about was that he started talking about the photographs if if they were some sort of blackmail, right? When you when you read that quote that you just read, "Let Marla deal with that," to me, that was a pivot. That was him basically saying, I have stuff that you want. And if you want it, you better deal with me.

Trisha LaFache: 22:59

So did you have a feeling that this case was going to resolve itself quickly?

Sound Clip: 23:03

I was hoping that we would have a deal on the table at some point pretty early, but obviously that's not what happened.

Trisha LaFache: 23:08

And on top of it, what a drama queen! Chuck sobs the papers. He's been in jail for three days. He doesn't think his daughters are going to remember him? His kids were 10 and 13 at the time. He's in jail for like a day. Settle, Chuck.

Sound Clip: 23:23

He's a strange dude.

TV News Reporter: 23:26

Police say when he was arrested, he admitted to a quote "problem." Can you shed any light on that? Chuck's defense attorney, "Well, you know, I I don't because I haven't heard the police officers testify. All I can tell you is that very often what the police officers say a person says is not always the way it comes out in court."

Trisha LaFache: 23:47

So here are some headlines from The Post and The Daily News from July 18 to about July 25, 1992. Shortly after Chuck's arrest, can I go ahead and read them to you?

Sound Clip: 23:56

Sure. I mean, look, the papers have their own idea about what's going on with this case.

Trisha LaFache: 23:59

Okay. Okay. Okay.

Kevin J. Hynes: 24:00

Okay...shoot.

Trisha LaFache: 24:01

Okay."Desperately Seeking Snapshots. Frantic Marla, Please For Embarrassing Pix." With an X."For Donald's Eyes Only." Missing snapshots show Marla in a tiny tiny bikini. "Marla Seeking Exposures." "Cops still on the Lookout for Missing Marla pix." With an X. Thoughts?

Sound Clip: 24:25

I mean, what do you want me to say?

Trisha LaFache: 24:26

I want you to say that this is not about burglary or possession of some stolen slingbacks or even guns. On July 24, 1992, here's how The Post reported it in,"Desperately Seeking Snapshots.""Marla made a desperate phone call to her press agents wife and begged her to make him hand over embarrassing photos that could jeopardize Marla's career. But Lynne Jones stood by her man refusing to help out the blonde girlfriend of Donald Trump. The dramatic confrontation occurred just days before Marla's press agent, Chuck Jones, was busted for allegedly stealing dozens of her high heels. A source said shortly before the cops collared Jones, he was visited in his office by Marla, her mother Anne Ogletree and a burly bodyguard. The Bodyguard tackled Jones and held him down on the couch as Marla and her mom tore through the room looking for the incriminating photos," added to source. "What they found instead were her bras and frilly panties hidden all over the place, but no pictures. As Marla left Jones's office, one of her bodyguard goons manhandled a Post reporter who was stationed outside." In the Daily News article, "Marla's Seeking Exposures," written by future famed Page Six editor Richard Johnson, Trump is quoted as saying this of the photos. "She took them herself with a self timer. They were all beautiful, a little risque, but not indecent, nothing like penthouse." Trump also said "the photos aren't any more revealing than a bikini." Doesn't this show that it was never about the shoes?

Sound Clip: 26:18

Listen, I don't want to have to say this. But that's all fucking fake news.

Trisha LaFache: 26:25

Fake news or not the New York tabloids were having a lot of fun with this. In another Richard Johnson article, The Daily News and titled, "New Angle on Marla Pix," a source is quoted as saying, "There are some missing photos and they are not just bathing suit photos as Donald has said. There are shots of Donald and Marla together that they took with a self timer on her camera. And there are shots of him he took because he started working out. He wanted before and after photos." My source who spoke on condition that I would never reveal her identity said, "if he looked great, he might not be too concerned. But he's shaped like a bowling pin and has a cottage cheese butt." So Kev, care to comment on Donald Trump's cottage cheese butt?

Sound Clip: 27:10

Yeah. You think I'm gonna say something about that you're out of your fucking mind. Was, isn't there another article about like talking about a video?

Trisha LaFache: 27:18

It's the same article! No shit. The very next sentence is, "That sounds like a great exaggeration. Given that Donald is a terrific athlete who excels at golf, tennis and softball, just to name a few sports."

Donald Trump Recording: 27:35

I was captain of the baseball team. I was supposed to be a professional baseball player. Fortunately, I decided to go into real estate and said..."

Trisha LaFache: 27:41

So is Trump now editing Johnson's work?

Sound Clip: 27:46

Look, I don't know, listen, Trish, you got to understand the papers had their own idea about this case. Right? And I mean, was Trump involved with some of these articles? Absolutely. Right? This guy has been manipulating the press since the beginning. Right? He's the president of the United States now. I mean, what do you expect? He's the master of manipulation.

TV News Reporter: 28:05

Donald J. Trump is the President of the United States.

Trisha LaFache: 28:12

Quite possibly, the best part of the article are the captions that accompany Donald and Marla's photographs. Okay, so Donnie is pictured sort of smiling with his hand half covering his face as if to say,"Oh, dear God," and the caption is "Donald Trump Shaped like a Bowling Pin." Okay. And and in a separate photo of Marla, she's wearing a cowboy hat looking very beautiful with the caption,"Marla Maples, Now Her Diary is Missing," as if to suggest that Marla, god bless her, has been nothing but trouble for Donald ever since he left Ivana for her. He lost all his money, his family, and Donald and Marla are constantly in the papers for breaking up and getting back together again. So, Johnson writes, "While Donald is worried about the photos, Marla is worried about the diary. When they split up she wasn't sitting around at home waiting for the phone to ring," my source says."The diary doesn't just reveal her innermost feelings toward Donald, but also discusses pop singer Michael Bolton. There's plenty of stuff on Bolton and some Arab guy in Aspen." Some Arab guy in Aspen? some Arab guy in Aspen? First of all, I find the reporting slightly problematic and it definitely would not fly in 2020 but he wasn't just some Arab guy. He was real estate developer and multimillionaire, Mohammed Hadid, who is the father of models, socialites influencers, Gigi and Bella Hadid and the ex husband of Real Housewives of Beverly Hills alumni Yolanda Hadid. It's just crazy how how all these rich people's circles just cross over and they just keep banging each other and switching out it's very, very incestuous. Not to mention Marla has a type, okay. She's broken up with Trump for 15 minutes and she's hooking up with a Hadid's sisters rich real estate developer daddy? I mean, what do you think about that?

Sound Clip: 30:13

I have no idea what you're talking about.

Trisha LaFache: 30:14

Okay.

TV News Reporter: 30:15

The FBI file quotes a published newspaper article that says "Marla supposedly invited singer Michael Bolton back to her room at the Trump Parc, following Trump's departure for a West Coast trip." In a 1994 interview with Vanity Fair magazine, Trump spoke about his tempestuous relationship with Marla. "I left her. I left her like a dog," he said. But once he found out he was losing her to Bolton, "he wooed her back. "A guy like me, a competitive guy. It's like an affirmation that the girl has to be great, because the number one singer has fallen for her."

Trisha LaFache: 30:49

What about the diary? What was in this diary?

Sound Clip: 30:53

Dear Diary, my teen angst bullshit has a body count. Look, it doesn't matter. Right. The Diary never turned up. She asked us to try to look for the diary. We had a defendant who was charged with burglarizing her apartment. She said one of the things that are missing is the diary. We then looked for the diary. That's what we do.

Trisha LaFache: 31:13

If diaries a contraband, though.

Sound Clip: 31:15

No, it's property of the victim. So we we looked for the diary.

Trisha LaFache: 31:19

Oh, my God. So you're telling me that a week after Chuck's arrest, the DA's office authorizes search warrants for execution on Chuck's office, again, and also on Chuck's mansion in Greenwich, Connecticut to recover a missing diary?

Kevin J. Hynes: 31:33

I think it was a diary. I think it was pictures and I think it was other personal property we were looking for. Look, the bottom line is Trish, we never found any of it. So it doesn't really matter. It's not pertinent. Listen in the 90s, if a victim of crime told us they were missing property, and we knew who the burglar was, we would do search wants to try to find that property. The fact that it was a diary, doesn't really matter.

Trisha LaFache: 31:53

That you guys were super busy because the crime was so high. Anyways, I'm clearly not the only person who's feeling this way. Under the headline, "Cops Still on the Lookout for Missing Marla Pix," The Daily News, quote, Steve Frederickson, a private investigator working with Jones's lawyer as saying, "It was highly unusual that a prosecutor would go through such length over a minor burglary case. It's absolutely incredible that they, Trump and Marla, are getting away with this stuff. They want those photographs and they're not going to stop until they get them." His quote closes with, "Chuck Jones doesn't have any photographs. He knows nothing about such photographs." So what do you think of Steve Fredrickson?

Kevin J. Hynes: 32:41

Fredrickson, I don't know how to say this. Back in 92. I didn't know any dudes who got facelifts but he looked like he is so like, shiny, tight skin. Um, you know, he was a private investigator, they said, I mean, I don't remember him investigating anything on the case. I do remember him talking to the press a lot. Again, another person on the Chuck team talking to the press.

Trisha LaFache: 33:02

But he's so he's a private Investigator, but he's not a former cop?

Sound Clip: 33:05

You know, we honestly didn't do a deep dive on him because it seemed just like a joke. Right. You know, he said things that Chuck wanted him to say obviously, and you know, he did a good job.

Trisha LaFache: 33:14

It's just crazy. Because every private investigator that I've ever had doesn't matter whether they're off the job for 20 years, they still walk, talk, look and act like Five-0.

Sound Clip: 33:25

I mean, this guy was more of a publicity guy than he was a investigator. I don't remember investigating anything to be honest with you.

Trisha LaFache: 33:32

Okay, so I get it. Frederickson believes that Chuck Jones does not have the photographs. But like you said, he's also part of his defense team. So his credibility is slightly at issue. However, at least some people think that Chuck does in fact have the photographs and the missing diary. "New Angle Exposed on Marla Pix." A source told Richard Johnson quote, "part of what he did was for revenge. This is his way of getting back at them for the way they treated him over the years." The article goes on to say, quote, "there were reports that a small group of Jones supporters might stage a protest tonight outside the Palace Theater, waving placards that say FREE CHUCK!" This despite the fact that he's out on bail. The Palace Theater if you remember is where Marla was making her Broadway debut and the Will Rogers Follies, a gig of course that Chuck would say,"he secured for her." FREE CHUCK! Kevin, what do you think about that? Do you think that Chuck had the pictures and the diary and he that was holding them for revenge?

Sound Clip: 34:40

First of all I want to talk about this free Chuck thing that is fucking both fake news that never happened. This is you know what you got to understand about these people talking to the presses. They're making shit up. Now look, whether or not Chuck had those pictures? I, we never knew, we never found out. Did you have the diary? We don't know. Did the victim think he may have? Yes. Did we do search warrants? Yes. But the reason we did that stuff was because we were starting to worry that maybe Chuck was using the photos or the diary as a blackmail chip.

Trisha LaFache: 35:10

Yeah.

Kevin J. Hynes: 35:10

And it's our job to try to, you know, make sure that doesn't happen.

Trisha LaFache: 35:13

See, I think that Chuck may have been coming unglued, right, because I feel like his problem was...

Kevin J. Hynes: 35:21

Becoming unglued?

Trisha LaFache: 35:23

Well, I think that he felt like he was losing control over Marla, because if you think about it, when Trump and Marla had started the relationship, Trump was married. So Chuck was still able to have a lot of control over Marla and he was one of the two middlemen, right, between Marla and Trump. I think that once Trump separated from Ivana, Chuck felt that loss of control over Marla's life, which I think Chuck felt was a huge betrayal. That's normal. I think Fitzsimmons was just like, over the tears and the crying and the aggravation that resulted from being friends with, you know, a 25/26 year old woman in an on again, off again relationship like Marla and Donald had. And Donald who was older, more powerful, just coming out of a long marriage with three kids. But see, Chuck, on the other hand, I think he really resented being pushed aside and not being as central or important to her life. I think he went a little bananas. I'm looking at the article, right where the source, who I think is Fitzsimmons, says"that part of what Chuck did was for revenge." Said that, "this was his way of getting back at them for the way they treated him for years." And so I'm trying to figure out what that even means, because judging by what I know about Chuck and Trump's relationship, I feel like he did not treat him too poorly. You know? Llike he put him at a paid position in Trump Organization, he put them in charge of the failed Westside highway project. You know, this feels like it's, it's, you know, Chuck, being a little I don't know, obsessive....over Marla.

Kevin J. Hynes: 36:58

Trisha, you're reading newspaper articles and believing that what's in the articles is, in fact, fact!

Trisha LaFache: 37:03

I'm investigating a story. Kevin. What are you here for?

Kevin J. Hynes: 37:06

Let me tell you. I got way too close into this. I got way too close into Chuck's mind. It's not, a it's not a happy place to be. The question we had was, did he commit the crime of burglary?

Trisha LaFache: 37:16

I care. I care, Kevin. So this is when Trump took over the case?

Kevin J. Hynes: 37:22

Trump never took over the case Trisha.

Trisha LaFache: 37:24

What about that meeting that Trump held without the DA's involvement?

Kevin J. Hynes: 37:28

Oh geez.

Trisha LaFache: 37:31

"Cold Feet on Marla Rap." Quote, "though a court case had seemed inevitable, it now appears that the charges may be dropped altogether by the warring parties. Jones on one side and Marla Maples and her lover, Donald Trump on the other. The Trump spin Jones, the publicist accused of stealing dozens of Marla Maples pumps has decided to apologize. The Jones spin, Trump has decided to drop the case, rather than have things get even messier." Subheading of the article entitled, "Behind closed doors," "Jones and his lawyer met in a closed door session with Trump." Quote,"Chuck came up for one reason. To apologize for all the trouble he caused. For what he did," Trump told me yesterday. Jones refused to discuss the case and Fahringer was unavailable for comment. But friends said,"Jones has a couple of bargaining chips." Quote, "Trump is trying to smooth things over because Chuck can cause a lot of problems," said and insider."Among the points that he could persuade Maples and Trump to drop the charges are, number one, Jones reportedly says that he was given the keys to Marla's Central Park apartment so he wasn't trespassing when he was caught by hidden video camera. Number two. The police didn't have a search warrant when they entered Jones's West 51st Street office and found 30 pairs of Marla Maples shoes. So Fahringer can argue the evidence sees is inadmissible. And number three, Jones says Trump's chief of security, the imposing 270 pound Matt Calamari, detained him for several hours against his will. And wouldn't even let him make a phone call." Here's a matt Calamari highlight.

Donald Trump Recording: 39:24

Another man has done a great job for me is Matthew Calamari, my Chief Operating Officer Matthew.

Matt Calamari Recording: 39:33

Donald, you know, I don't care for Jen very much. Gotta be honest with you. Because... Wow... because uhh...I'm not doing too good.

Trisha LaFache: 39:47

Anyways, this was not resolved in this private closed door session.

Sound Clip: 39:51

Yeah. I mean, from what I understand that, from what I read in the newspapers, the meeting broke down with no deal.

Trisha LaFache: 39:58

It sure looks like Trump and at least Richard Johnson thought that Trump was in control of the case that it was up to him to, you know, quote, "drop the charges and the Trump was here looking to make a deal."

Donald Trump Recording: 40:08

You to get everybody in a room, and you have to get him to agree. But you have to get him to agree with what you want. And that's part of being a dealmaker. You can't leave the White House, go to Hawaii and play golf for three weeks and be a real deal maker. It doesn't work that way. You have to get people in, grab them, hug them, kiss them and get the deal done. But it's got to be the deal that you want.

Sound Clip: 40:31

Trump can't drop the charges, right? Only the district attorney's office can drop the charges. So whatever meetings were going on outside of our presence, were unfortunate, but they had no effect on the case.

Trisha LaFache: 40:43

No effect?

Kevin J. Hynes: 40:43

No effect whatsoever.

Trisha LaFache: 40:45

So Trump has nothing to do with the DA getting a search warrant?

Kevin J. Hynes: 40:47

No!

Trisha LaFache: 40:48

So he's got nothing to do with all this leaking information back and forth?

Kevin J. Hynes: 40:52

Trisha we never spoke to Mr. Trump.

Trisha LaFache: 40:54

So Trump couldn't close. Is that why the tape leaked?

Sound Clip: 40:58

The tape never leaked.

Trisha LaFache: 40:59

Wow. The Post reported that the tape was leaked. Here we are back in the article, "Marla Sole Man, Please Forgive Me." Quote, "new details emerged last night about the secret video tape made by Marla that allegedly shows Jones stealing her high heels." A source told The Post that at one point on the video, as Jones grabs a shoe to stuff in his bag. "He sniffs it and then licks it." Next time on Heeled...

Kevin J. Hynes: 41:33

You lose a murder case, not great. You lose a robbery case, not great. You lose the shoe case, could be all over.

Trisha LaFache: 41:38

What happens when the criminal justice system and the media collide.

Kevin J. Hynes: 41:42

He was a character that the New York press loved to cover.

Chuck Jones Recording: 41:48

I came o the rescue of a young lady und r severe emotional stress as a result of a relationship wi h Donald Trump.

Kevin J. Hynes: 41:54

We looked at the charges and we decided we're gonna offer this guy a deal of a lifetime.

Trisha LaFache: 41:57

He starts making outrageous demands.

TV News Reporter: 42:00

Chuck Jones says he will cooperate on one condition, "He wants the shoes back."

Kevin J. Hynes: 42:04

I mean the press went crazy!

Trisha LaFache: 42:05

Donald is calling off the wedding.

Marla Maples Recording: 42:08

It's destroying my reputation again. It's already happened once with just loving you. And now, you know, not to be married efore we have the baby? Oh my god.

Trisha LaFache: 42:19

Heeled is a Jus kill Production. Produced b Tandace Khorrami, Luke Gronema and Tyler Patrick Jones. It's written by Kevin J. Hyne and myself Trisha LaFache. Th Heeled theme music was writt n by Chad Crouch. Additional sh ut out to Mike Shafranak, o r editing wizard, our sound eng neer Kyle Raps and to Max Alac bez, owner of Pink Cloud Stu ios in Los Angeles where we r cord these shoescapades. Follo us on our Instagram at heeled.p dcast or check us out on ou website heeledpodcast.com. une in next week for another e citing episode of